hi im still trying to get to grasps with shooting birds now i want some help in getting my shots pin sharp. i thinks iv coverd all the things that could make my shots soft/blured ect. what i have noticed and has surprised me is even with my set up when i take a pic and look through the finder as the shot is taken and the mirror moves the image still moves like mad i hope you understand what im getting at bellow is my set up can you give me any advice at all no matter how small it could make all the diffrence.
camera 1dmk2
lens 300 2.8 is with x2 converter canon
tripod gitzo g1227
head king cobra
and iv been using a cable relese as well
and as mutch as possable iv used 5.6 thats wide open with the converter iv tryed to keep the shutter speed high as well using
a asa of 200-400 as needed
Is the lens loose in its mount, is the Center of Gravity of the lens/camera combination blanced at the midpoint of the mount, are all the mounts knobs tightened before the photo is taken.
Do the following, set up a piece of square school paper at the end of your garden, put the tripod on a hard surface ( not floor boards!), center the view finder on the paper and lock everthing down, us a cable release... now take 6 shots, one with AF/IS on, one with AFon/IS off, one MF/IS on and one MF/IS off. Now do the same with MLU. Process all the same way with the same sharpening... What are the results.
tom every thing is locked up tight and the lens is balanced up with the cobra head . i will do as you have said and try a controled trial . a nother thing what i would like to know when you bird shooters take your pics what part of the bird do you focus on iv been focusing on the head at all times.
shutter speeds from 250 to 500 and more some times when the light is good. i know i should use above 600 of a sec because the lens is 600 focul lenghth but on a cloudy day in the uk and shooting in to a tree ill be lucky to get 250 some times the speed will go down to 80 of a sec at a iso of 400 and i know you can still get sharp images as low as this because iv seen other peoples pics what thay have got at low speeds 125 / 250 / even 80 of a second
I read "shooting in to a tree" as "shooting in a tree" I was going to reccomend "shooting out of your tree" but then perhaps not.
Seriously though, I believe that it's a matter of practice, I don't think just because you've got the gear you can automatically get sharp results. Do the study on long lens technique, shoot thousands of pics and providing the camera is focusing as it should you'll find your result rate going up and the shutter speed going down.
The 1D Mk11 I believe is the bees knees at high ISO's so use them to up the shutter speed, go higher than 400 to 800 and even 1600, use neat image or noise ninja to remove noise.
Out of interest, can you explain in more detail (or post an image) how you think your shots are soft.
Are you applying any "sharpening" or USM to the photographs you've taken? Most people expect the shots straight out of their camera to be sharp, and are often surprised to find that you have to do a bit of work on the computer to make them look truly sharp.
Also, which 2x convertor are you using? Canon? 2x Mk1, or 2x MkII?
i am using a canon mk 2 2x converter and i use photoshop 7 and i use usm at amount 180%
radios 2.0 threshhold 0 and i use levels and saturation and the camera is also set at 3 sharpset in camera and i also shoot raw. i will post some shots tomorrow as its bed time now so ill get back soon
Dunno what you're comparing your shots with, but if you're comparing shots taken with the 300 with and w/o the 2x you will see a huge difference in sharpness and percieved sharpness, i.e contrast.
A 300 with 2x is handy enough for newspaper shots....hell I use that combo a lot for just that........but if it's sharpness and fine detail you're after then stick with the 1.4x as a max.
Camera settings for sharpness etc are not relevant when shooting RAW, they only apply to Jpegs and also to what you see in the wee chimp screen.
Careful use of noise elimination programmes can be good, but using them with a broadbrush type technique can have awful effects on percieved sharpness and fine detail
There are so many variables involved in your question that to pin it down to one or two, w/o seeing an image is just about impossible. For sure though, you're off to a bad start by using a 2x though....not impossible to get sharp images with one, but conditions have to be near perfect to do so with any frequency.
One thing I've learnt from shooting my 500mm with 1.4x on a Manfrotto gimbal, is that using a cable release is not way to get the sharpest images (unless you're using mirror lock up for every shot).
Try hold the camera tightly to your face with your right hand while pressing your left hand down hard on top of the lens above the pivot point, and gently press the shutter.
I find I can get 50% of shots sharp at 1/160 sec. with subjects about 1/5 life size- i.e. small birds a good size in the frame (can go slower when focussed further away), rising to about 80% of shots sharp at 1/250. I get the odd soft one with 1/320 if I've been careless (or panicked with the bird huge in the frame, and not wanting to miss the shot), but have never had a problem with 1/500. The 1/ the focal length rule only applies to hand holding, and differs slightly by the crop factor/pixel density of your camera, and is not that reliable for longer lenses.
The depth of field is so small, that you have to nail the focus on the eyes, else the shot won't work.
Tripod may be some cause, the 1227 has the regular quickrise collar and column which is a source of movement, you are really better with the 3 series gitzo CF which has the more stable flat plate to mount the gimbal unit on. This may explain the mirror swing induced vibration, the standard long lens technique described by Ben helps reduce this vibration.
Are using IS on or off when using the tripod?
Also some fine tuning of your image processing may be required. Canon's recommended first pass/input sharpening for RAW images is 300%,0.3r,0thr
After that you probably still need to use some final image sharpening after all processing on the image has been done, previous topics suggest luminescance sharpening, several passes of 50%,0.5,2 after each pass "edit, fade, luminosity100%" this prevents the sharpening halos
You appear to be doing all the right things. You said you could see the image moving like mad, now if this is happening and you are not even toughing the camera then I would say, assuming you are using the 300f2.8 IS that your IS is malfunctioning.
The 300f2.8 IS should be sharp even with a x2 - I took the attached with a 1D MkII + 300f2.8 IS + x2 it was a test I did in the garden and the section you are looking at is shown at 100%.
right iv got a link now to some of my pics some are better than others some are what i think are sharp and some are just not sharp enough for me tell me what you think and tell me what i need to do to get better. my target is to get the images as good as you can get
http://iciclelanding.com/aperture?album=2988&view=album
I often use a 2x with my 400/2.8 with no problems, if the image is 'soft' then I know it is my fault or I am expecting too much from the combo....
Looking at your images I would guess that there is no major problem.... you are shooting wide open, to get the best from a 2x you really need to stop down at least 2stops, by using a converter you are amplifying any 'defects' in the lens... remember also that DoF at 600mm f5.6 is going to be minute.....
I'm with Phil, you just need to up your depth of field, you can see the beaks and eyes are sharp but as you go deeper the softer they get.
Tim
Posted by John Varley on June 19, 2006 at 11:16 AM
Hi Chris - had a look at your web pics - I agree with Tim and Phil. Especially with small birds - closeup - the DOF with a 600mm at F5.6 is tiny. My standard setting for small birds closeup with my 300 F2.8 and x2 is F8 (sharpness also benefits from stopping down a bit.) Ducks closeup at least f11.
Took me ages to start getting decent images with the 300 and x2. One discovery was that apertures are adjustable for a reason I always used to just shoot wideopen to get a fast shutter speed!
John
Posted by chris jones on June 19, 2006 at 11:54 AM
thanks every one for your imput what i think ill do next time after all that has been said is as follows.
first ill try to shoot at f8 or one stop each way depending on the light and if the light is bad and drops my shutter speed to low then ill up the iso instead of the apeture
that should make a diffrence also ill remember the smaller the bird the less dof
thanks again for all your help and when iv shot some more birds ill post the results
Discussion
17 repliescamera 1dmk2
lens 300 2.8 is with x2 converter canon
tripod gitzo g1227
head king cobra
and iv been using a cable relese as well
and as mutch as possable iv used 5.6 thats wide open with the converter iv tryed to keep the shutter speed high as well using
a asa of 200-400 as needed
Is the lens loose in its mount, is the Center of Gravity of the lens/camera combination blanced at the midpoint of the mount, are all the mounts knobs tightened before the photo is taken.
Do the following, set up a piece of square school paper at the end of your garden, put the tripod on a hard surface ( not floor boards!), center the view finder on the paper and lock everthing down, us a cable release... now take 6 shots, one with AF/IS on, one with AFon/IS off, one MF/IS on and one MF/IS off. Now do the same with MLU. Process all the same way with the same sharpening... What are the results.
T
It may also be worth checking the camera is not back focusing. I know alot of mk1's had this problem.
Cheers
Barry
Seriously though, I believe that it's a matter of practice, I don't think just because you've got the gear you can automatically get sharp results. Do the study on long lens technique, shoot thousands of pics and providing the camera is focusing as it should you'll find your result rate going up and the shutter speed going down.
The 1D Mk11 I believe is the bees knees at high ISO's so use them to up the shutter speed, go higher than 400 to 800 and even 1600, use neat image or noise ninja to remove noise.
Tim
Out of interest, can you explain in more detail (or post an image) how you think your shots are soft.
Are you applying any "sharpening" or USM to the photographs you've taken? Most people expect the shots straight out of their camera to be sharp, and are often surprised to find that you have to do a bit of work on the computer to make them look truly sharp.
Also, which 2x convertor are you using? Canon? 2x Mk1, or 2x MkII?
radios 2.0 threshhold 0 and i use levels and saturation and the camera is also set at 3 sharpset in camera and i also shoot raw. i will post some shots tomorrow as its bed time now so ill get back soon
A 300 with 2x is handy enough for newspaper shots....hell I use that combo a lot for just that........but if it's sharpness and fine detail you're after then stick with the 1.4x as a max.
Camera settings for sharpness etc are not relevant when shooting RAW, they only apply to Jpegs and also to what you see in the wee chimp screen.
Careful use of noise elimination programmes can be good, but using them with a broadbrush type technique can have awful effects on percieved sharpness and fine detail
There are so many variables involved in your question that to pin it down to one or two, w/o seeing an image is just about impossible. For sure though, you're off to a bad start by using a 2x though....not impossible to get sharp images with one, but conditions have to be near perfect to do so with any frequency.
John
Try hold the camera tightly to your face with your right hand while pressing your left hand down hard on top of the lens above the pivot point, and gently press the shutter.
I find I can get 50% of shots sharp at 1/160 sec. with subjects about 1/5 life size- i.e. small birds a good size in the frame (can go slower when focussed further away), rising to about 80% of shots sharp at 1/250. I get the odd soft one with 1/320 if I've been careless (or panicked with the bird huge in the frame, and not wanting to miss the shot), but have never had a problem with 1/500. The 1/ the focal length rule only applies to hand holding, and differs slightly by the crop factor/pixel density of your camera, and is not that reliable for longer lenses.
The depth of field is so small, that you have to nail the focus on the eyes, else the shot won't work.
Are using IS on or off when using the tripod?
Also some fine tuning of your image processing may be required. Canon's recommended first pass/input sharpening for RAW images is 300%,0.3r,0thr
After that you probably still need to use some final image sharpening after all processing on the image has been done, previous topics suggest luminescance sharpening, several passes of 50%,0.5,2 after each pass "edit, fade, luminosity100%" this prevents the sharpening halos
Mike
You appear to be doing all the right things. You said you could see the image moving like mad, now if this is happening and you are not even toughing the camera then I would say, assuming you are using the 300f2.8 IS that your IS is malfunctioning.
The 300f2.8 IS should be sharp even with a x2 - I took the attached with a 1D MkII + 300f2.8 IS + x2 it was a test I did in the garden and the section you are looking at is shown at 100%.
The techs are 400 iso 1/250 f7.1
http://iciclelanding.com/aperture?album=2988&view=album
just copy and paste above link
I often use a 2x with my 400/2.8 with no problems, if the image is 'soft' then I know it is my fault or I am expecting too much from the combo....
Looking at your images I would guess that there is no major problem.... you are shooting wide open, to get the best from a 2x you really need to stop down at least 2stops, by using a converter you are amplifying any 'defects' in the lens... remember also that DoF at 600mm f5.6 is going to be minute.....
HTH
Tim
Took me ages to start getting decent images with the 300 and x2. One discovery was that apertures are adjustable for a reason
John
first ill try to shoot at f8 or one stop each way depending on the light and if the light is bad and drops my shutter speed to low then ill up the iso instead of the apeture
that should make a diffrence also ill remember the smaller the bird the less dof
thanks again for all your help and when iv shot some more birds ill post the results
chris