I am making a personal observation but I wonder if others feel the same as me. I find looking at some images with the intent to critique somehow diminishes the image. (like looking at a beautiful face and searching for a blemish. If you can accept that analogy.) I believe some photos are intended to be seen subjectively. When I start to pick it apart looking for flaws and I find one, that "nit" I strained from the image becomes highly noticable. Hence, the initial impact of the photo is lessened.
I think there are posts in the NPN Galleries that do not call for critical scrutiny. They are just eye-candy to be savoured and enjoyed. Even if there is fault, it is likely the photographer knows about it before you do, and he decides if it has enough qualities to override any flaws.
Sure, we are here to learn and improve our photography. How else can we progress unless someone offers constructive critique? I agree. But I just think that not all photographers are posting to learn and improve. Instead they are here to teach through example by showing their work. They set the bar for others to reach, to use a cliche.
I believe some photos should be studied to understand why and how they work so beautifully, despite any faults. And others should be scrutinized for critiques so that the photographer can be helped to progress.
That's a good observation, Will, but by the same token anyone posting an image should take the response for what it is - a critical observation by fellow photographers. Some of it may be useful and some may be nitpicking - it's up to you to take away what you need from it.
Ultimately someone is giving you a gift - something for nothing. Be grateful. Whether you like the gift or not or whether you find it useful or relevant is for you to decide.
To add another twist - I get very different critiques from fellow photographers than I do on slideshow or exhibits. Obviously fellow photographers will be more critical of technique, random visitors to a coffee shop or restaurant may comment on general aesthetics, and fancier "artsy" venues generally lead to discussions of composition, creaitve expression etc. So my suggestion - don't get all your critique in one place, and certainly don't take it all at face value.
People discuss my art and pretend to understand as if it were necessary to understand, when it's simply necessary to love. --Claude Monet
Thanks for starting this thread. I see a problem with your definition of "critque" because it seems to imply that the act of offering one is a process in finding faults (big or small) with the photograph under scrutiny. Why must this be so?
I believe it is possible to provide a meaningful critque without tearing the image to shreds. Often times a "personal" response ~ good and/or bad ~ with sufficient reasoning to back it up is more useful than a long list of improvement tips.
Of course, like I have stated many times in the past, in order to receive an effective critique it is the responsibility of the author (photographer here) to provide sufficient context upon which the critique may be based. Otherwise, as is most often the case, the respondents have to make wild guesses on the photographer's intent and that is quite a useless endaevor.
Will, I can only speak for myself, but when looking at image and trying to look into it, I'm not trying to find faults. When I decide to use keyboard to share my taught and impressions, I'm trying to type down what Ifeel about the image. Since it's quite an effort for engineer to talk about emotional points, I sometimes switch to lazy mode, and then I'm typing about technical aspect of the photo. For me it's easier to talk about exposure, composition, faults and such things. So yes, I do agree with both Guy and Anil. You'll get what you'll prepare the way for, and you'll get it for free.
I rarely post an images that I am 100% happy with. I usually post the ones that I feel are good but that I am kind of "on the fence" about. Over the years here on NPN , I have grown to know that if I get comments by Mr. or Ms. X I really take them to heart because I've seen their work or, two, I've read posts and can kind of tell these guys know their stuff. . On the other hand, I've received some good imput from NPN newbies also. We really have a good group here
I've been doing this long enough to know when an image of mine is a winner. ( I wish there were more winners than ? marks!) I do value all of the opinions i receive bototh positivle & negativily.
My only suggestion on this subject is that if you are posting an image to stroke your egos thats fine, however the real value here is to gain input from people who,for the most part understand what their talking about. It's all about improving our work isn't it.
JG
PS---This is as good a time as any to thank those of you that have taken the time to add impot to some of my posts!
Guy, when I wrote about some photographers who teach through example and set the bar, I was thinking specifically of you. Thinking of gifts, you are very generous. Thanks for your devotion. I am grateful. And also to the others who generously give of their time and effort.
Anil, you are right. To me critiqueing is the process of finding finding faults. Critiqueing should also be the process of finding what is good about the image and saying so in the comments. Searching the image for flaws is not necessarily tearing the image apart. I rarely find more than one nit.
Sometimes the photographer writes that he is trying to accomplish this or that and wants to know if he succeeded. Or he asks a question with the aim of improving his work. We then have something specific to look for. I would like to see more of that.
Marko, I must say here that I do not have a problem with the way I look at the images posted here. I do not habitually go on a fault-finding binge. But when I do I find it takes away from the image, especially when my immediate reaction is a positive one. Your suggestion is good. It is better to share one's impressions. That is what I want when I post an image. Your impression and thoughts. (and others too) It is not always easy to express oneself as you say. Sometimes it is sufficient to say "I like the mood" without trying to describe exactly what the mood is.
Jack, a late response to your reply. I feel the comments I get are always positive no matter what they are. I hope I never come across as a fault-finder.
For me, the personal reaction to the image comes first, then comes a decision whether or not to provide a review, and finally what kind of review to give. I may be reading you wrong Will, but the way you express it feels the reverse of that with the intent to criticize coming first.
First I decide whether an image works for me or not. Then I try to understand why. And finally I make a decision whether or not to share that information.
The last decision is based largely upon what I infer about the photographer's motives for posting. If I feel they just slapped the shot on the gallery for display while not going the extra step to provide the background info others have referenced here, I'm not going to grace them with a review- positive or negative. But if they put in the extra effort to talk about the shot and what they are trying to do, I'll respond in kind.
Hank, that is exactly what I am drawing attention to. When the intent to criticize is first I believe it takes away from the image. I don't think we should receive the posts that way. If the image works for me why should I go further and try find something wrong? On occassion I am guilty of doing that. Certainly not always. If the image does not work, I too try to understand why. That is when I start to look for flaws. Is there another way to try understand why an image does not work without becoming a fault-finder?
Will: it sounds like a have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too problem. NPN forums are critique forums, not galleries. Any photograph posted here is done so with the premise that it will be critiqued. If you feel that critiquing diminishes the viewing experience, either cease viewing the images with your critiquing hat on, or visit gallery sites where you can just view photographs for joy and pleasure.
Although my critiquing has declined recently, I don't make a point of nitpicking photographs for the sake of nitpicking. If a photograph is good, it's good and I'll so say! No further critique is necessary. If I provide an actual critique, then I will stop at nothing to state how the photograph may be improved. These are just my opinions, but then this is a critique forum.
Michael I believe it is sometimes a case of wearing the wrong hat. Once the image is on the monitor, I should know if I should be wearing my critique hat or my view-for-joy hat I think one should always have his view-for-joy hat on first and switch to the critique hat after. Should I always look for improvements in a post?
Will
Edmonton, Alberta
Canada
Posted by Nathan Buck on June 30, 2006 at 12:22 PM
I hesitate to post this...but I think I will anyway. Will you said But I just think that not all photographers are posting to learn and improve. Instead they are here to teach through example by showing their work. I think some people post here to just get EP's. I am thinking of one person who has less than a 2:1 comment to post ratio, but gets EP's fairly regularly. This person also never answers questions that are put on his/her image. To me, in this case, the EP's diminish the effectiveness and validity of the critique forums. (But maybe this is another discussion)
I view every image with the intent to critique it if possible. Sometimes my realm of experience does not allow for me to offer a critique, though I can at least offer my feelings on an image. Sometimes there is nothing that I can really suggest to improve the image. If there is something that I can suggest, then I will.
I honestly wish that people people would make their thoughts known more often. If you like it say so (though I do not post to get my ego stroked). More importantly if you DO NOT like it TELL ME!
Nathan, I do not think those photographers who do not post to learn and improve and instead post to teach through example are doing so out of ego. I think they are genuinely offering valuable help and there should be someone to stand in front of the class. If I see a very strong image and the photographer does not ask how he can improve then why should I critique it? As for if you DO NOT like it TELL ME! I think there should be a little more courage to do so.
I believe you are right Will, there are many people here who DO post for the friendship and teaching. I do feel though that there are some that fit into the category that I mentioned. It is not most, just a couple.
Darren: I'm curious as to how you disagree with me. I agree with you that at least a good 50% of the photographs posted in (at least) ESS appear to be showcasing rather than shopping for critique. However, that does not change the purpose the forums are intended to serve.
I'll admit to being in the the 50% bracket I mention above. Everyone reaches or will reach a place in their photography where they're set on their path (regardless of whether anyone relates to the imagery or the delivery of it). I post the few photographs that I do to see how they are received by fellow NPNers, and don't generally follow the suggestions of critics. Why not? Because I'm content with the style and manner in which I make my photographs. I don't need critical acceptance of my photographs, but I do like to understand why one of my photographs may hit or miss with the NPN crowd and/or other photographers.
"I don't need critical acceptance of my photographs, but I do like to understand why one of my photographs may hit or miss with the NPN crowd and/or other photographers"
That's an important distinction Michael for anyone trying to decide what to do with their photos, especially if they are hoping to sell them. Photographers often react very differently than markets and general viewers (the folks with the checkbooks). Without the caveat of experience in specific markets or applications, critiques become pretty academic. If you're shooting for your own enjoyment, carry on. If you are shooting for the accolades from other photographers, then thoughtful reviews are helpful at the risk of producing a standard style rather than your own. If you hope someday to sell photos, it's important to recognize that different criteria may apply specific to each eventual application.
A photo useful for a cover will have lots of space for drop-in text, but will probably have to be cropped for use as a print. A great photo for prints may be useless for covers simply because you can't drop in text without detracting from the "frame filling" image. The travel industry will buy ten landscapes featuring people for each one without (my actual experience), while galleries and other vendors of nature prints will sell almost no shots including people.
My expectation in providing and receiving critiques is dialog. I always go back and respond to my reviewers, plus I expect reactions to my reviews from the posting photographers. The dialog is the whole point of crtitique for me. Doesn't mean everyone has to feel that way, but I quit critiqueing images of individuals who don't participate in dialog. Period.
all this thought, I am feeling like, hummm... why do we posts images? don't think that most need much critiquing... so then maybe we do like that pat on the back that we are doing a fine job...?
or is it that we do like to share & give (& get) inspiration with what we know is a good thing...?
there can be endless possiblities to as why one posts, but I think that most important is the last one I stated.. sharing & inspiration is why I come view & I think it is why I post also...
the critiquing is just a added bonus... if you always think of it as a bonus it never seems like it is something meant to be mean...
alot of times others thoughts on my image has changed my thought as to how it really comes across the way I wanted it to... other times I try what was suggested & find I personally like the way I did it... & then when I sell 50 prints of it I know I was thinking on the right side.. LOL
but really all & all I do think the folks here that run the forum & mods all seem to be very kind with their critiques... no one that I have read ever seems rude...
so I am thinking this is a good forum to come hang out & share & give & get inspiration...
so Thank You!!!
The main reason I take the time to look at photographs here and critique a few of them is for my own benefit. I'd like to believe that the photographer might consider what I say, but I'm not upset if I am ignored or even if I am told that I am a fool. Come to think of it, being told I'm a fool is probably better. At least I know the photographer read my comments.
To address the original premise, no, I don't find that critiquing an image changes what I feel about it. My heart has already passed judgement on a photograph long before my mind engages to the point that I start to think about what I'm seeing.
"I think there are posts in the NPN Galleries that do not call for critical scrutiny."[/i}
Since these are critique galleries, I'm assuming that the photographer posting the image actually [i]wants[ a critique, regardless of the nature of the photograph (i.e., eye candy or not). To assume that another photographer doesn't want a critique - or that certain images do not call for critical scrutiny - seems a bit presumptuous given the purpose of these galleries. On the other side of the coin, if someone prefers to just post an image but doesn't want critiques, they can just say so.
Is providing a critique mutually exclusive with appreciating the artistic effort of the photographer? It's quite the opposite, in my mind. Someone taking time to post their thoughts about an image of mine....I think that's quite an honor, regardless of whether the comments are entirely positive or point out opportunities for improvement.
In my case I tend to view other images as I would like mine to be viewed, which is with a very critical eye. Very simply I post because I want to learn and improve my techniques and skill. The very real added bonus has been the comraderie, friendships, and the true feeling of 'family' I derive from being in NPN, but as I said, that's the bonus. Critiqueing others doesn't keep me from enjoying their work, in fact, it may have just the opposite effect at times. Also, one wonderful (selfish) side effect of critiqueing others is that I learn so much from it myself. It helps me to be more self critical of my images.
Rick, perhaps it is a little presumptuous to assume that not all photographers want a critique. I think even the best among us appreciates a critique. If I see something that "bothers" me then I will say so. But not all of us are in the stage of being here to learn and improve. There are photographers here (and you know who they are) who are very accomplished with their work and I feel they are not looking for criticism. To look at some work here and then think to myself "there has to be something wrong with it somewhere" does nothing for me and takes away from the viewing enjoyment. Still, noone is immune to a little criticism and someone can point out something that improves the image. Should we assume all of us asks for critiques?
Bill, I appreciate what you are saying. I think more of us should say what we want and expect from the forums. I always end my posts with "thank you for your comments and critiques.
The image forums are critique forums. Unless a photograper asks otherwise, no matter who they are, if there is something I do not like I will try to nicely tell them that. It does not mean that I have to pick an image apart to find it. If it sticks out enough that I notice it, I think it is important to do so.
See Guy Tal's recent 'impressionist' photo. Guy is probably one of the best photographers that we will all be lucky enough to know. He responded very favorably to some suggestions in this shot. I am guessing that we all learned from these suggestions.
This has been an interesting thread, so I'll add my $.02:
No matter what the underlying motive, if one posts an image here they should expect, and welcome, critiques since this is a critique forum. I would like to explain what the critique process here at NPN has done for me:
I consider myself an "advanced amateur". Although I've made a couple of small sales, and sell some greeting cards, I'm really not a professional. I wanted a creative outlet, so I decided to try photography. I instantly fell in love with it. I took some classes and followed NPN for maybe a year before joining. I remember my first post...an orange fall tree on the Blue Ridge Parkway. I also remember my first comment...not the exact words, but the fact that the comment was very encouraging, as were the ones that followed.. I was blown away by the encouragement. I don't remember the specific constructive criticism or suggestions on that first image, but it really built up my confidence. From that point on, I have welcomed all the critique my images have received. When I post an image, I expect honest opinions, and I try to offer that when I critique an image. I feel that my skill as a photographer has improved greatly largely due to the feedback I receive here. My confidence has increased, and although I've only met a couple of you in person, I feel that I have really made some friends!
When critiquing, I think it's important to remember that probably 99% of the time, the person posting the image likes the image for some reason. So no matter what the quality of the image, we should be sensitive to that and offer some encouragement. Instead of saying something like "this really doesn't do anything for me" and leaving it at that, we should explain why the image doesn't do anything. We should be specific about what steps could be taken to improve the image. If the image is great and we don't think any improvement is necessary, then say so.
I have seen one thing here that I don't like. That's when a member posts an image that may not be the most beautiful image, or may have some technical flaws...and no comments are made. I see many "not so great" images that receive very few or no comments. I think these members post to receive help in order to improve their skill, and I feel we do them wrong if we don't provide some feedback. I think that's especially true for the photographers on this site that are extremely accomplished and talented. They have a lot to offer, and I would like to see them spend more time offering their valuable opinions to those that could use improvement! I think it's especially important to offer critique to the new members. I remember how important is was to me. If some are posting for grandstranding purposes only, they should reconsider their motives.
"It does not lmean that I have to pick an image apart to find it. If it sticks out enough that I notice it, I think it is important to do so."
Nathan, there is one thing I must say is that I am one of those who seeks out critiques with the aim to improve. When I am suddenly asked to wear the critique hat when viewing someone else's work that can be a daunting task. So sometimes I find myself "nitpicking" when I feel I really should not. So I appreciate your statement above. The critique should stick out enough for me to notice it without too much staring.
Alice, sometimes it is more difficult to offer a comment to a "not so great" image, especially when you cannot quite grasp what is wrong with it. I don't think such posts need many comments. One or two would be enough to help the photographer. I have posted a few "not so greats" and appreciated it when someone has stepped up and offered good critique. Being ignored or just getting one kudo does nothing for the photographer. A lack of comments and lack of views hints at the need for critiqueing.
Since NPN's primary mission is to provide an excellent vehicle for learning, and secondarily as a community for networking, I believe that if someone posts an image here, it is done so for the purpose of critique.
Everyone likes (needs) feedback both for positive reinforcement and areas that could/should be improved to create a stronger photograph. To my mind there is no 'perfect' photograph: Every image deserves to be strengthened/improved, even if the tweaks are minor.
The danger here, of course, is that suggestions regarding improvements may be based upon how the viewer would have made the image. Therefore, we must be careful to evaluate the image and write a critique based upon the merits of the image itself, rather than inject our own creative biases.
One thing is for certain: Posting images, regardless of the purpose, and posting comments, sure makes life interesting!
Posted by Richard Wong on June 30, 2006 at 10:50 PM
I feel that the gallery postings here are for the purpose of art critique. If one's main motivation for posting is ego stroking then I think they should either state it or they should look elsewhere. The few pictures that I've posted in the main gallery I genuinely wanted opinions on them because I was on the fence or trying something I hadn't done.
I dont think anyone can presume that the photographer sees everything there is to see to their image. You never know when someone can provide an unexpected view.
Posted by Kent Staubus on June 30, 2006 at 11:19 PM
I've been following the thread but have been silent so far. My thinking is this. There just aren't that many places you can post photos and get an honest reaction. NPN seems to have a good group of people that are quite considerate of each other, have a "clue," and there is enough volume here to give a good sampling of views. Sometimes I find myself staring at a photo that just doesnt' seem to have much going for it, but really isn't it a kindness to help someone do better rather than just sugar coating it? I mean, myself, if I want to hear how "great" my images are, I show them to my mother. Sometimes I come across photos that just seem perfect. In those, I still like to point out to others exactly what it is that makes it work. That's still critiquing. A critique is an analysis, not a list of what is "wrong." I try to mention what's good & what "could be improved."
Mostly, I post photos for two reasons. One is to show others what I've been doing lately. Don't forget that living where I do, in a relatively isolated area, I don't have a lot of others to interact with. I like to get some feedback every now and then to keep me from wandering too far off! The second reason I like to post is to see how my shots are being interpreted. Often there is symbolism in my shots and I'm curious to see if anyone picks up on it.
Gordon--
If you think an image is good, why not spell out why?
Hank--
You provided good insight on the different uses of different cropping. I also like the idea of photos providing a chance to dialogue about photography specifics. The usual focus of most photo forums is gear. The gallaries here help to make the focus be the photo. I would like to see additional focus on the feeling the photo imparts evey now & then too.
I am convinced the Gallery forums are for critiques. So, as Michael has indicated, we should be prepared to have our critique hats on. Even if the photographer is very accomplished. It lets him/her know our thoughts and feelings on the work. Sometimes (often?) it takes another accomplished photographer to point out what could be improved. And like you say, Kent, critique does not have to be a list of what is wrong. So we can all participate without feeling presumpteous or inadequate. Everyone here would like well thought out feedback on their work. I will not pick an image apart to try find a flaw. Like I said in my opening statement, that takes away from the pleasure of viewing the work here.
Maybe a subtle point of differentiation, but my experience from having taught critical writing (think NPN but for writers instead of photographers) many people tend to associate 'critique' with negative feedback...which is unfortunate. In every class, 20-30% of the people never got past that mindset, and even worse, most of those saw the critiques as a criticism of them personally rather than a constructive critique of their literary work.
A critique is a constructive expression of one's thoughts about an image, whether those thoughts be related to an image's strengths or weaknesses. Hopefully there aren't many who pick apart images to find flaws; that seems a depressing way to experience the work here. I tend to study images to figure out why they work well; if in doing so I find something that might make for a stronger image, I try to find a constructive and encouraging way to express that. For me, personally, I find that approach enhances the pleasure of viewing the work here rather than detracting from it.
The best photographers here can benefit from the thoughts of the least experienced photographers. That's the beauty of critique, in my mind - the value of a good critique is independent of the relative experience level of the person giving it. Even Tiger Woods has someone who critiques and helps him with his golf swing.
many people tend to associate 'critique' with negative feedback
I was of that mindset, Rick. But fortunately I can get past that. You hit upon the main motivation for my starting this thread. Picking apart images to find flaws is a depressing way to experience the work here. So it was important to bring out what true critiqueing really is. To study an image, posted by an accomplished photographer who consistently posts eye-candy to figure out why it works well is one thing but an entirely another thing to study an image, to figure out what makes it works, that at first look does not work for you. It can be easy to go on to another image. The challenge is to stay with the image and find out what does make it work as well as staying with it to find out why it did not work for you at first look. Taking up that challenge would increase the comments. We all can do that.
Beautifully stated Rick. So many folks hear the critical voices of their parents in critiques, or on the other hand feel the need to play critical parent when critiqueing. What an unfortunate muddle to wade through!
Discussion
31 repliesI think there are posts in the NPN Galleries that do not call for critical scrutiny. They are just eye-candy to be savoured and enjoyed. Even if there is fault, it is likely the photographer knows about it before you do, and he decides if it has enough qualities to override any flaws.
Sure, we are here to learn and improve our photography. How else can we progress unless someone offers constructive critique? I agree. But I just think that not all photographers are posting to learn and improve. Instead they are here to teach through example by showing their work. They set the bar for others to reach, to use a cliche.
I believe some photos should be studied to understand why and how they work so beautifully, despite any faults. And others should be scrutinized for critiques so that the photographer can be helped to progress.
What are your thoughts on this?
Thank you for your response.
Will
Edmonton, Alberta
Canada
Ultimately someone is giving you a gift - something for nothing. Be grateful. Whether you like the gift or not or whether you find it useful or relevant is for you to decide.
To add another twist - I get very different critiques from fellow photographers than I do on slideshow or exhibits. Obviously fellow photographers will be more critical of technique, random visitors to a coffee shop or restaurant may comment on general aesthetics, and fancier "artsy" venues generally lead to discussions of composition, creaitve expression etc. So my suggestion - don't get all your critique in one place, and certainly don't take it all at face value.
People discuss my art and pretend to understand as if it were necessary to understand, when it's simply necessary to love. --Claude Monet
Guy
Thanks for starting this thread. I see a problem with your definition of "critque" because it seems to imply that the act of offering one is a process in finding faults (big or small) with the photograph under scrutiny. Why must this be so?
I believe it is possible to provide a meaningful critque without tearing the image to shreds. Often times a "personal" response ~ good and/or bad ~ with sufficient reasoning to back it up is more useful than a long list of improvement tips.
Of course, like I have stated many times in the past, in order to receive an effective critique it is the responsibility of the author (photographer here) to provide sufficient context upon which the critique may be based. Otherwise, as is most often the case, the respondents have to make wild guesses on the photographer's intent and that is quite a useless endaevor.
Marko
I rarely post an images that I am 100% happy with. I usually post the ones that I feel are good but that I am kind of "on the fence" about. Over the years here on NPN , I have grown to know that if I get comments by Mr. or Ms. X I really take them to heart because I've seen their work or, two, I've read posts and can kind of tell these guys know their stuff. . On the other hand, I've received some good imput from NPN newbies also. We really have a good group here
I've been doing this long enough to know when an image of mine is a winner. ( I wish there were more winners than ? marks!) I do value all of the opinions i receive bototh positivle & negativily.
My only suggestion on this subject is that if you are posting an image to stroke your egos thats fine, however the real value here is to gain input from people who,for the most part understand what their talking about. It's all about improving our work isn't it.
JG
PS---This is as good a time as any to thank those of you that have taken the time to add impot to some of my posts!
Anil, you are right. To me critiqueing is the process of finding finding faults. Critiqueing should also be the process of finding what is good about the image and saying so in the comments. Searching the image for flaws is not necessarily tearing the image apart. I rarely find more than one nit.
Sometimes the photographer writes that he is trying to accomplish this or that and wants to know if he succeeded. Or he asks a question with the aim of improving his work. We then have something specific to look for. I would like to see more of that.
Marko, I must say here that I do not have a problem with the way I look at the images posted here. I do not habitually go on a fault-finding binge. But when I do I find it takes away from the image, especially when my immediate reaction is a positive one. Your suggestion is good. It is better to share one's impressions. That is what I want when I post an image. Your impression and thoughts. (and others too) It is not always easy to express oneself as you say. Sometimes it is sufficient to say "I like the mood" without trying to describe exactly what the mood is.
Jack, a late response to your reply. I feel the comments I get are always positive no matter what they are. I hope I never come across as a fault-finder.
Thank you for the replies.
Will
Edmonton, Alberta
Canada
First I decide whether an image works for me or not. Then I try to understand why. And finally I make a decision whether or not to share that information.
The last decision is based largely upon what I infer about the photographer's motives for posting. If I feel they just slapped the shot on the gallery for display while not going the extra step to provide the background info others have referenced here, I'm not going to grace them with a review- positive or negative. But if they put in the extra effort to talk about the shot and what they are trying to do, I'll respond in kind.
Will
Edmonton, Alberta
Canada
Although my critiquing has declined recently, I don't make a point of nitpicking photographs for the sake of nitpicking. If a photograph is good, it's good and I'll so say! No further critique is necessary. If I provide an actual critique, then I will stop at nothing to state how the photograph may be improved. These are just my opinions, but then this is a critique forum.
Will
Edmonton, Alberta
Canada
I view every image with the intent to critique it if possible. Sometimes my realm of experience does not allow for me to offer a critique, though I can at least offer my feelings on an image. Sometimes there is nothing that I can really suggest to improve the image. If there is something that I can suggest, then I will.
I honestly wish that people people would make their thoughts known more often. If you like it say so (though I do not post to get my ego stroked). More importantly if you DO NOT like it TELL ME!
Nathan
Will
Edmonton, Alberta
Canada
Nathan
I'll admit to being in the the 50% bracket I mention above. Everyone reaches or will reach a place in their photography where they're set on their path (regardless of whether anyone relates to the imagery or the delivery of it). I post the few photographs that I do to see how they are received by fellow NPNers, and don't generally follow the suggestions of critics. Why not? Because I'm content with the style and manner in which I make my photographs. I don't need critical acceptance of my photographs, but I do like to understand why one of my photographs may hit or miss with the NPN crowd and/or other photographers.
That's an important distinction Michael for anyone trying to decide what to do with their photos, especially if they are hoping to sell them. Photographers often react very differently than markets and general viewers (the folks with the checkbooks). Without the caveat of experience in specific markets or applications, critiques become pretty academic. If you're shooting for your own enjoyment, carry on. If you are shooting for the accolades from other photographers, then thoughtful reviews are helpful at the risk of producing a standard style rather than your own. If you hope someday to sell photos, it's important to recognize that different criteria may apply specific to each eventual application.
A photo useful for a cover will have lots of space for drop-in text, but will probably have to be cropped for use as a print. A great photo for prints may be useless for covers simply because you can't drop in text without detracting from the "frame filling" image. The travel industry will buy ten landscapes featuring people for each one without (my actual experience), while galleries and other vendors of nature prints will sell almost no shots including people.
My expectation in providing and receiving critiques is dialog. I always go back and respond to my reviewers, plus I expect reactions to my reviews from the posting photographers. The dialog is the whole point of crtitique for me. Doesn't mean everyone has to feel that way, but I quit critiqueing images of individuals who don't participate in dialog. Period.
or is it that we do like to share & give (& get) inspiration with what we know is a good thing...?
there can be endless possiblities to as why one posts, but I think that most important is the last one I stated.. sharing & inspiration is why I come view & I think it is why I post also...
the critiquing is just a added bonus... if you always think of it as a bonus it never seems like it is something meant to be mean...
alot of times others thoughts on my image has changed my thought as to how it really comes across the way I wanted it to... other times I try what was suggested & find I personally like the way I did it... & then when I sell 50 prints of it I know I was thinking on the right side.. LOL
but really all & all I do think the folks here that run the forum & mods all seem to be very kind with their critiques... no one that I have read ever seems rude...
so I am thinking this is a good forum to come hang out & share & give & get inspiration...
so Thank You!!!
Jill :)
To address the original premise, no, I don't find that critiquing an image changes what I feel about it. My heart has already passed judgement on a photograph long before my mind engages to the point that I start to think about what I'm seeing.
Pete D.
Darren: I was merely being literal. I defer to NPN itself: "Image Critique Galleries".
Now, whether you and I agree on their function and whether or not we 'abuse' that function, they are in fact "Image Critique Galleries".
Since these are critique galleries, I'm assuming that the photographer posting the image actually [i]wants[ a critique, regardless of the nature of the photograph (i.e., eye candy or not). To assume that another photographer doesn't want a critique - or that certain images do not call for critical scrutiny - seems a bit presumptuous given the purpose of these galleries. On the other side of the coin, if someone prefers to just post an image but doesn't want critiques, they can just say so.
Is providing a critique mutually exclusive with appreciating the artistic effort of the photographer? It's quite the opposite, in my mind. Someone taking time to post their thoughts about an image of mine....I think that's quite an honor, regardless of whether the comments are entirely positive or point out opportunities for improvement.
Bill, I appreciate what you are saying. I think more of us should say what we want and expect from the forums. I always end my posts with "thank you for your comments and critiques.
Will
Edmonton, Alberta
Canada
See Guy Tal's recent 'impressionist' photo. Guy is probably one of the best photographers that we will all be lucky enough to know. He responded very favorably to some suggestions in this shot. I am guessing that we all learned from these suggestions.
Nathan
No matter what the underlying motive, if one posts an image here they should expect, and welcome, critiques since this is a critique forum. I would like to explain what the critique process here at NPN has done for me:
I consider myself an "advanced amateur". Although I've made a couple of small sales, and sell some greeting cards, I'm really not a professional. I wanted a creative outlet, so I decided to try photography. I instantly fell in love with it. I took some classes and followed NPN for maybe a year before joining. I remember my first post...an orange fall tree on the Blue Ridge Parkway. I also remember my first comment...not the exact words, but the fact that the comment was very encouraging, as were the ones that followed.. I was blown away by the encouragement. I don't remember the specific constructive criticism or suggestions on that first image, but it really built up my confidence. From that point on, I have welcomed all the critique my images have received. When I post an image, I expect honest opinions, and I try to offer that when I critique an image. I feel that my skill as a photographer has improved greatly largely due to the feedback I receive here. My confidence has increased, and although I've only met a couple of you in person, I feel that I have really made some friends!
When critiquing, I think it's important to remember that probably 99% of the time, the person posting the image likes the image for some reason. So no matter what the quality of the image, we should be sensitive to that and offer some encouragement. Instead of saying something like "this really doesn't do anything for me" and leaving it at that, we should explain why the image doesn't do anything. We should be specific about what steps could be taken to improve the image. If the image is great and we don't think any improvement is necessary, then say so.
I have seen one thing here that I don't like. That's when a member posts an image that may not be the most beautiful image, or may have some technical flaws...and no comments are made. I see many "not so great" images that receive very few or no comments. I think these members post to receive help in order to improve their skill, and I feel we do them wrong if we don't provide some feedback. I think that's especially true for the photographers on this site that are extremely accomplished and talented. They have a lot to offer, and I would like to see them spend more time offering their valuable opinions to those that could use improvement! I think it's especially important to offer critique to the new members. I remember how important is was to me. If some are posting for grandstranding purposes only, they should reconsider their motives.
Keep up the good work NPN !!
Nathan, there is one thing I must say is that I am one of those who seeks out critiques with the aim to improve. When I am suddenly asked to wear the critique hat when viewing someone else's work that can be a daunting task. So sometimes I find myself "nitpicking" when I feel I really should not. So I appreciate your statement above. The critique should stick out enough for me to notice it without too much staring.
Alice, sometimes it is more difficult to offer a comment to a "not so great" image, especially when you cannot quite grasp what is wrong with it. I don't think such posts need many comments. One or two would be enough to help the photographer. I have posted a few "not so greats" and appreciated it when someone has stepped up and offered good critique. Being ignored or just getting one kudo does nothing for the photographer. A lack of comments and lack of views hints at the need for critiqueing.
Will
Edmonton, Alberta
Canada
Since NPN's primary mission is to provide an excellent vehicle for learning, and secondarily as a community for networking, I believe that if someone posts an image here, it is done so for the purpose of critique.
Everyone likes (needs) feedback both for positive reinforcement and areas that could/should be improved to create a stronger photograph. To my mind there is no 'perfect' photograph: Every image deserves to be strengthened/improved, even if the tweaks are minor.
The danger here, of course, is that suggestions regarding improvements may be based upon how the viewer would have made the image. Therefore, we must be careful to evaluate the image and write a critique based upon the merits of the image itself, rather than inject our own creative biases.
One thing is for certain: Posting images, regardless of the purpose, and posting comments, sure makes life interesting!
-PB
Right on, right on, right on!!!!!!
I dont think anyone can presume that the photographer sees everything there is to see to their image. You never know when someone can provide an unexpected view.
Mostly, I post photos for two reasons. One is to show others what I've been doing lately. Don't forget that living where I do, in a relatively isolated area, I don't have a lot of others to interact with. I like to get some feedback every now and then to keep me from wandering too far off!
Gordon--
If you think an image is good, why not spell out why?
Hank--
You provided good insight on the different uses of different cropping. I also like the idea of photos providing a chance to dialogue about photography specifics. The usual focus of most photo forums is gear. The gallaries here help to make the focus be the photo. I would like to see additional focus on the feeling the photo imparts evey now & then too.
Kent in SD
Will
Edmonton, Alberta
Canada
A critique is a constructive expression of one's thoughts about an image, whether those thoughts be related to an image's strengths or weaknesses. Hopefully there aren't many who pick apart images to find flaws; that seems a depressing way to experience the work here. I tend to study images to figure out why they work well; if in doing so I find something that might make for a stronger image, I try to find a constructive and encouraging way to express that. For me, personally, I find that approach enhances the pleasure of viewing the work here rather than detracting from it.
The best photographers here can benefit from the thoughts of the least experienced photographers. That's the beauty of critique, in my mind - the value of a good critique is independent of the relative experience level of the person giving it. Even Tiger Woods has someone who critiques and helps him with his golf swing.
I was of that mindset, Rick. But fortunately I can get past that. You hit upon the main motivation for my starting this thread. Picking apart images to find flaws is a depressing way to experience the work here. So it was important to bring out what true critiqueing really is. To study an image, posted by an accomplished photographer who consistently posts eye-candy to figure out why it works well is one thing but an entirely another thing to study an image, to figure out what makes it works, that at first look does not work for you. It can be easy to go on to another image. The challenge is to stay with the image and find out what does make it work as well as staying with it to find out why it did not work for you at first look. Taking up that challenge would increase the comments. We all can do that.
Will
Edmonton, Alberta
Canada