Here's my question: Where are all these views coming from? Guests I suppose? Does anyone keep stats on this? I really find it hard to believe that the average image here takes around 150-250 views and recieves 5-10 comments. This would indicate that 3%-6% of all people who open up an image actually feel inspired to make a comment on it. I'll accept that maybe half or less of these views come from guests (but can't confirm it) but still were talking less than 10% of all images that are opened receive comments.
This seems strange to me because I feel that I comment more than half the time when I open an image. I recently posted an image that took 140 views and two comments - I even left a note asking for any critiques or suggestions - but no one responded. This leaves me wondering.....why didn't people like the image? 2 of 140 felt inspired enough to even comment??? I thought it was a nice image, probably one of my best even, but I don't know anything about how others percieved it other than they didn't want to give a comment. This defeats the whole point of posting an image here IMO. To see what others responses to it will be!
I'm not trying to rant and complain about things, just curious to hear your take on this. Could it be 90% of views come from non-members? That members open a photo 5 times before they comment on it? Or that people look and just don't comment. I know when I ask for critique, it would be really appreciated to get some responses. I'll try my best to do the same for you!
I almost always look multiple times before I comment. It takes me a while to get my thoughts in order, and I frequently check back to see what other people have said. So, yeah, it's not unusual for me to see the same photo 5 times or more.
Just out of curiosity, how many times do people look at a photo? When I see something interesting I just plain like to look at it a lot. Do other people find that just one look is enough?
Hi Marc, I'm one of those viewers, that do not comment all too often. That's because i'm not an native english speaker, so commenting is thougher, since I really need to dig for the right words. And since your pictures always amaze me, there's not more than 'wow' I can say. I think most viewers are like me, enthousistic hobbyist, that only dream about taking such high quality pictures like you ;-)
So although maybe you think that the picture is not worth comments, it's probably more like people just are so impressed, they don't know what to say.
First - a funny fact. You have initiated 130 posts and made 1294 comments and I've made 133 posts and 1299 comments. I just find that sort of thing funny :). Although, we're both complete dabblers compared to someone like Guy Tal in terms of ratio of comments to posts.
At any rate, it's clear that you (like me) feel a sense of obligation to comment as well as post images (and clearly I was once much more active than I am now). It's part of being a contributing member of the comunity. And, on average, it seems to me that your photos (as an example) get a lot of views and comments - most of the time. This is partly because you are a contributing member of the community and partly because you're a very accomplished photographer - I am sure there are many people who actively seek out your images on the thumbnail page.
You're feeling a little frustrated that you're not getting the kind of feedback you want. And perhaps you're starting to question the judgement of the audience - who don't always respond the way you expect?
Well, I'll offer up a number of rather random observations that should be taken as nothing more than insights in to how I think rather than any sort of universal truths.
1. I'd venture that given your track record of images, most participants are probably hesitant to find fault with one of your images. And it's probably not so much that they 'dislike' it per se (you will tend to get some negative comments if people actively dislike something) - just that they don't like it as much as much as some of your other work or maybe they are just a bit indifferent.
2. What does it mean if an image is 'popular' on NPN versus 'unpopular'? Does this really equate with 'good' and 'bad'. (The existential question.) I concluded that 'popularity' and 'quality' had no correlation. Perhaps popularity is an indicator of potential commercial success - within certain venues anyway. I don't know.
3. I really don't know what I could say, by way of comments on one of your photographs, that would be genuinely useful to you. You obviously have a firm grasp of all the technical and design aspects - you certainly don't need further opinions on how you might have cropped or composed something differently. You also seem to have a real flair for creating dramatic, colourful images and from what I gather from various comments you've posted (here and elsewhere) this is what you're trying to accomplish. There's no doubt that your ability to find, conceive and execute on the kind of photographs you want to make is better than my ability to make those kinds of photographs - you're doing what you love and want to do.
4. Different people respond to different images. I have some 'hits' that tend to resonate with lots of people, but in general, I find that there is no consistency in what people like and don't like. Many people who like my 'Roads' photographs generally don't like my 'Prairie Waters' photographs (too pretty) and vice-versa (ie. the Roads are too 'ugly').
For one, I think a lot of people do what Ana just said. Sometimes I go on here just to look out of enjoyment, but no constructive critique thoughts are flowing thru my mind at the moment so it's saved for another time. I don't forget what I look at so if it's still there a day or two later I'd probably comment. for example, i saw Jerry Greer's last image post when it was on the first gallery page, then looked again before commenting when it was on the 2nd page.
I could be mistaken but that reflection image of yours was posted yesterday or the day before but is no longer here. I'm sure you would have picked up more comments this week.
I completely agree with EricF,
Actually (I'm saying it the first time here), I find it hard to digest that "'same old...waterfall and icon shots' from certain members" get something like 20+ coments just because of their track record and often good images by lesser known people get less comments although there is not much wrong with the image.
At the same time, I can not really fault some of the images. They have all the ingredients of a successful image, good light on peak, nice medow/cascade and all in the FG. All I can do is this - Nice image. This is of no help to the poster as s/he perhaps knows the image is nice.
On the other hand there are people like GuyT who take time to critique image so that the poster gets the point and it helps him. I always try to read their remarks on images posted. It helps me improve my craft both as a photographer and critiquer.
I may represent a significant number of "lookers" that don't post commentary. I have only being doing nature photography in earnest for about 9 months. I am still very much in "learn mode". When I view a photograph made by you or one of the other very talented and experienced photographers on the forum I do a mental critique and then refer to the subsequent postings to see if my ideas were anywhere near reality. Sometimes I'm on the money and sometimes I'm way off in left field, but the ratio is improving slowly. I'm still developing my critical eye and I learn a lot from reading the positive and negative commentary, and from studying the posts that leave people speechless. The staff showcase is a very humbling experience for me.
Give me a few years, a few successes, and maybe my head will get big enough that I get the idea I could teach you a thing or two. Until that day comes, I'll mosty look, learn, post images for review, and learn some more.
Here's my thought on that reflection image: 2 comments and 140+ views. OK, so why did I spend my one post per 48 hours on an image that is getting absolutely nil for comments, critique, ect? In hindsight it was a selfish, spur-of-the-moment delition that I regret, but I think there is some validity to my point as well. Just frustration really. THIS was the image I refer to if you didn't see it.
Eric, thanks. Yeah, our stats are astonishingly similar! Thanks for your thoughts. Let me just touch on one point - #3 specificly. I wan't to improve as a photographer. The advice, suggestions and comments I recieve here are my sole purpose for posting images. I have learned a considerable amount by posting images here. I have reposted and reworked images based on helpful suggestions by members and like the revisions I have made. No matter what amount of experience you have in photography, I believe you can learn a lot from others. The second one starts thinking 'my photos are perfect' and becomes very set in their ways and defensive, is when they stop improving. I look at others work every day and try to improve. I look at the works of masters like Guy Tal in astonishment at how diversely talented and visionary a photographic artist can be. I'd love to improve the diversity of my images! Just one of the many ways I'd like to improve. I would also gladly accept image critiques even from non-photographers - often very important! Photographer or not, the emotional response delivered by a photograph to the viewer is very important to me.
But even if you don't feel like critiquing an image (I know many don't), it's nice to recive acknowledgement anyway if you took the time to look. It helps validate the art form by knowing others enjoyed your work. I know a few of my comments are purely congratulatory statements, thanking the photographer for their contribution. If I take time to look, I usually take time to say something, even if just a WOW! or Nice One!
Marc, I'll offer a little different take perhaps (perhaps not - I haven't read all the comments so far). I think a lot of the comments or lack thereof have something to do with timing; ie, when they're posted. It seems that images posted on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday generally get less comments - most of the 'non-guests' are out shooting/playing so comments fall a good bit. Even which day you choose from Mon-Thur seems to make a difference. Pick a day when images are flowing strong and you get a lot of hits, but perhaps not a lot of comments (a lot of competition for the commenter's time). A slower day, where the image stays near the top of the page for a longer time = less hits, but more comments, as people are not spread so thin as to have to pick and choose. Some people (you, as an example) will always generally garner more comments as 'non-guests' will seek your images out, much the same as a 12 year old seeks out the centerfold in Playboy. Nothing scientific in all this rambling, but I've noticed the same thing in the past and have been 'studying on it' now for some time.
I also wonder why photos sometimes go the length of their 5 week posting time w/o any comments (or only one "nice shot" type comment). I've received a lot of encouragement, knowledge and food for thought through the comments folks have made on my photos (and hopefully others have found my comments beneficial too).
My personal goal is to keep my comments to posts ratio at 3or4:1, which has been suggested on previous threads. Sometimes I will comment on a photo the first time I view it, especially if I have a positive emotional response to it. Other times I will comment after viewing it and what others write about it, especially if I have mixed feelings about it. About twice a week I'll go to page 2 of the all photos gallery and look for photos that I might have overlooked and make comments then.
I think a lot of people do not realize how much can be learned by commenting. I am not trying to elevate myself as a great poster, but I commented only for about 9 months before I posted my own images for critique. I learned so much in this time. I still comment a lot more than I post.
[rant]
I completely agree with you Marc. In the other galleries, such as flora, an image may get about 100 total views (give or take). I hate posting an image and getting 5 comments or so, with that many views. Especially since in the mean time I have posted comments to at least 10 images. If even just those people that I had commented for would post a comment to my images the ratio would be higher. (OK..so maybe I am ranting a bit).
Sorry, I do not have an answer, I just agree with you.
I look at many more images than I comment upon, and sometimes I will go back and view particular images many times. Since early in the year I have had many personal and work issues/concerns that have precluded me from veiwing images and making many comments in any of the forums. Now that things are setlling down a bit, I am more able to actively particpate.
So, I think for some folks, posting comments is a logistal matter, but that does not mean (necessarily) that they do not appreciate the images that they have taken the time to view.
Feedback on our efforts (regardless of the endeavor) is a basic need, and while written/spoken comments are nice to receive, even a small 'tip of the hat' (image 'views' in the present context) is a good thing, too. So, I have come to realize that even if an image does not receive many comments, but folks are looking at it, I am happy that they appreciate it enough to take a look-see.
Mark,
You should feel very fortunate. You have probably garnered more comments from one of your images than I have ever received from all of my images combined.
It is hard for me to find pity for you, when my posts on average get 3-5 comments. Now that is hard to swallow when the work needed to capture and process images take quite a bit of work.
I didn't make this post selfishly Jim. I'm not asking for pity - obviously. I comment a lot more on others pics than you do too, Jim. That might have something to do with recieving more comments - but the comments/views ratios are still similar. Let's try to stay on the topic here and don't accuse me of asking for pity from anyone.
I sometimes have to look at a photo a couple of times because at first I don't know what to make of it. Sometimes I have to decide if I like it or not because I don't want to make a snap decision on it. I want to think it over some.
I find I just can't comment on every photo I open. With some, the photo just doesn't grab me even though there is nothing technically wrong with it that I can point to. WIth others I don't quite know what o make of them. What I try to do is give first priority to those images that have fewer than three comments, then those by new people, and then those are really DO grab me!
I have a photo posted in Man & Nature and it has 100 views and 2 comments. That really doesn't bother me. I know it's a decent shot but not spectacular. I'd rather just have a couple of comments rather than a bunch telling me it's "nice." I don't need the pat on the back so much. I get more of that on other forums for the shots I have published I suppose.
Marc, here are two very imprtant things to keep in mind that are somewhat unique to NPN;
1. NPN has excellent search engine rankings. Google phrases such as "nature photography", "wildlife photography", "landscape photography" or even just "nature" and NPN is very easy to find.
2. Unlike other nature photography sites, we do not require forum registration to simply view the IC galleries. I have always felt that requiring a registration for a casual observer is counter-productive.
Put those two things together and you have the answer - NPN gets nearly 2 million page views a month, many of them by those who visit simply to enjoy the incredible nature photography displayed on this site.
Could it be that 90% of views come from non-members? I have no hard stats to draw that conclusion, but I think it's safe to say that many of those views are from "casual observers" surfing in to enjoy our photography.
Marc, I would have commented on it. I just did not have time to do so when I saw it this morning. (or was it last night? )
It does seem unusual for you to get 140 views and only 2 comments for an image; especially for that one. Sometimes I visit your posts and do not comment simply because what I would have written has already been done by others several time over. And there are so many of them already. I will if you don't mind the repitition.
On commenting in general, I find it overwhelming to try and comment on each image just in the ESS Gallery alone. They just come too fast. Even just looking at each and everyone is a daunting undertaking! And I need time to write something I think is meaningful. Try to imagine what it would be like to do so in all the galleries.
Marc, your portfolio alone when it was featured in February on PhotoPortfolios had over 20,000 views for that month, and has racked up another 13,000 since. Mr. Clapp didn't do too shabby himself in June with over 17,000. Jim Zipp, our first featured portfolio in January of 2004 now has over 104,00 views; Darwin Wiggett is now over 200,000 views on a portfolio of 40 photos.
Keeping the doors open to everyone I think is good for all of us. As always, thanks for posting your work on NPN and helping to bring in the visitors!
"The second one starts thinking 'my photos are perfect' and becomes very set in their ways and defensive, is when they stop improving."
I couldn't agree more Marc. I haven't even figured out what perfect means or looks like - so I guess I'm back at first principles or something :).
Here's the thing: I mostly stopped participating in online forums not because I stopped valuing the input and feedback of others but because I came to see my own comments and feedback as highly suspect. I see picture making as a complicated business that I poorly understand - I have a big enough struggle trying to figure out what kind of photographs I want to make let alone presuming I can sort someone else out!
I'm pretty happy to engage in a long conversation about my photographs or someone elses photographs but the brevity of most online exchanges seems fraught with pitfalls to me.
I think time has a lot to do with it (at least is does with me). I spend a lot of time browsing through the photos (I actually pull up "all photos" and scroll thru them all one at a time). But many times I'm at work, and busy, and just don't have the time to offer a well thought out comment. This has been particularly true the past few weeks. I have probably viewed every one of the photos, but commented on very few, which I regret. I think every post deserves time to take the image in, ponder it and offer on honest opinion. Sometimes I have time just to comment on the ones that "jump out" at me, either because I see something obvious that could be done to improve the photo, or because I see it as an unusually "good" photo. Sometimes I feel as Eric explained, that it's hard enough to come up with what I want in my own photos, and I just don't feel that I can spend enough time to provide valuable input on someone else's. I do find it interesting that my comment to post ratio is similar to those mentioned above...about 10 comments to every post. Maybe that's about average!
I would strongly make it a practice ( like Mark wrote in a past post on this thread) to at least put in a word e.r. nice-OK or something to let the poster know a NPN'er viewed the image.
Again, I usually post images I am on the fence about but I know any photographer worth his or hers salt would want to learn--learn--learn. Fortunately the resource we have here is sure worth the price of admission.
Thanks folks.
Good shooting!
JG
Posted by Darren White on July 3, 2006 at 11:54 PM
I have been wondering the same thing.....while at a friends house recently we tried to get him on as a guest but could not find a way to make it work....
so I am curious as to how many guests really are here...
I wish this site had a feature that showed who was online and how many guests were online so we could get a feel for the ratio of guests to members...
I am on the low side of comments vs posts (a little more than 3:1) and while I can't explain anyone else's behavior, I can certainly explain mine.
First and foremost is the logistics. I have a demanding job that takes more of my time than it should, I have a long commute to and from work, I have a wife that demands a reasonable portion of my day most every day and I have a 56k modem connection that really only makes it to 47k on a good day. To make matters worse, I also have this new hobby called photography that I try to set aside a little time for now and then. Essentially I end up doing my posting and commenting between the hours of 10:00 PM and 1:00AM when I am pretty much exhausted. Therefore, with only a little bit of valuable time & energy available, I tend to look at as many photos as I can, read the comments to learn as much as I can from all the valuable insight and knowledge and then go back and comment on a select few that either struck me emotionally or that I felt that with my miniscule amount of experience and knowledge, I might actually be able to help someone with.
I also neglect to comment on a lot of photos because 1) everybody else has already repeated every thing I would be saying a number of times 2) I have no experience or knowledge and therefore no advice to offer on anything having to do with film, scanning, dSLRs, lenses, metering methods, tripods, etc, etc. 3) because of No. 2, I don't feel very comfortable offering opinions, let alone advice to the huge number of accomplished and skilled photographers on this site and 4) with only a few precious minutes to spend online I have to set priorities so I don't comment on photos that I don't find interesting or that I can't help someone with.
My contributions also tend to be sporadic because I try to catch up on those rare occasions when I actually have a large hunk of time to spend and I tend to comment more on weekends when I have a block of time during the day when I still have some energy left
After listening to some of the comments above, I can see at least one opportunity to improve my behavior. When I approve of an image but don't feel impressed or have time to critique it, I can at least leave a couple short words or a or maybe a to let the person know that I viewed their photo and found it pleasing. Its always good to know that someone out there appreciates my photo and it helps me know I must be doing something right which helps build my confidence. The least I could do is return the favor and it wouldn't take much time. I've read some opinions that those kind of comments are a waste of time but I'll just take that risk and at least it won't be very much time that I'm wasting
Don't know about the others, but for me, each and every photo you post is fantastic. And posting "wow, fantastic work" for each of your images isn't what you're looking for, right? Or a bit differently put - your photography is so much better than mine that I don't feel capable of really giving a worthy or useful critique for your photos most of the time. This doesn't mean that I don't like them, or don't think about them.
However, in general, I agree with you, absolutely. For most pictures, there are not many comments, and even worse, usually the comments are very short. I personally am looking for critiques that help me improve what I do. So a "nice pic" is nice, because I then know at least somebody likes the image, but a "try this and that...", I'd appreciate even more, and I'm also trying to comment more than "nice pic", and sometimes don't comment if I can't. Just my personal perspective on this.
This is more in response to Gary's comments above than anything else, but may still be relevant overall. Gary - I certainly understand the logistical/time constraints, and feel that's a very valid argument/reason.
However. RE: Your point #2 - I feel you are way underestimating yourself when you say you have no experience/knowledge. Your images are wonderful; what you might lack in experience you certainly make up for in vision and compositional skill. I see no lack of knowledge at all - no one gets 'lucky' as as often as you. RE: your point #3 - I fully understand not feeling comfortable offering 'advice' to the likes of Marc, Guy, Tony, Youssef, Jerry, et al. However, your OPINION is just that - YOURS. You're entitled to it, and should feel free to express it, regardless of whose image you're viewing. Strictly my opinion here, but I think you're missing out on a great and valuable learning tool by not commenting or expressing an opinion. I don't mean to sound selfish here, but critiqueing is a wonderful way to improve and learn for yourself. Not only are you offering a helping hand/pat on the back/2nd opinion/etc., it forces you to study what others do well or not so well, reinforces what you like/dislike, and plants lots of seeds in the ole brain for future cultivation. Work through the initial 'uncomfortableness' and jump in with both feet - nothing to lose, everything to gain.
I have been wondering the same thing.....while at a friends house recently we tried to get him on as a guest but could not find a way to make it work....
Darren, something else was going on with your friend's PC, perhaps a slow connection or a browser problem. Anyone can visit the IC galleries and discussion forums and see (or read) everything there. Just log out and see for yourself.
A forum registration is required only to be able to post photos, topics or comments.
FWIW, I can truly relate to Gary's post too, especially point number one. Now I have to get back to getting the July edition online!
I tend not to comment if I can't add anything that hasn't already been said. Unless you are constantly surfing this site it is often difficult to be one of the first to view an image and therefore, offer some critique that hasn't already been done. Just saying "Wow" is stroking the ego and nothing else....although I do that if an image really moves me. Some who post images can occasionally get defensive in their responses (whether aware of it or not) if certain technical or aesthetic "shortcomings" (in the opinion of the viewer) are mentioned...doing so, even once, tends to "scare off" those with perhaps less experience or less confidence from commenting in the future.
Thanks all for your responses. I have a better understanding of others preferences when viewing images, critiquing images and why the view:comments ration is what it is. I certainly don't want a bunch of repetitive "Good Shot" comments and pats on the back if there are already twenty similar comments on a photo! Thanks again.
I haven't been on here much lately, but I'll add my $0.01 ( I don't even have 2 cents worth!!!! )
I have an even slower connection than Gary; it usually runs 26k to 28k. It takes me so long to get an image on my screen that I might as well comment on it while it's there, so I generally comment on every one that I look at. Sometimes, probably less than 15% of the time, I simply can't figure out what to say, so I go on to the next one.
I COMPLETELY agree with Bill and those who say that making comments is one of the best ways to improve your own photography understanding. Besides,as someone noted, it's your OPINION that we're asking for. Many times, it's that instantaneous gut reaction of "Yeah, I like that!" or "No, it just doesn't make an impact me," along with any more info that you can give that I would find valuable. Almost ANY comment helps the photographer.
Interesting topic. I've been a member for about 1 1/2 years now and have spent my energies in the Avian forums since bird photography is one of my main interests. Like many of you I do make an effort to comment on as many images as I can when I have the time and computer access to do so. (As I write this I have a 2 day connection to an ISP at a marina up the BC coast while I travel by boat.)
I try to offer useful commentary when I can with suggestions that I think will give the photographer another technique or perhaps just another way of looking at the subject posted. I do also post a number of pats on the back. If someone has taken the time to prepare and post an image I do try to take the time to think about it and give some feedback. Sometimes a simple is all I post which I hope indicates that I've looked at the image and appreciated it.
For photographers who are new to nature photography or image making in general I suggest you not discount your own knowledge and stay silent but take the opportunity to post a question: I'd be surprised if anyone who posts would mind a "Wow. Can you explain how you...?" Also, the process of looking at and analysing any image is an excellent way to learn how photography is done.
Admittedly people post images for as many reasons are there are people: some folks are seriously trying to learn, some just want to show their images and some are looking for ego strokes. I find all these reasons valid IF the persons posting also take the time to comment on other people's images as well. There are some who post but never comment on anyone else's work and only respond to praise of their own images; those folks I just ignore as I don't feel they're here to participate in the community but rather are here to harvest praise for themselves.
To all the beginners I suggest you jump in and comment and question. We were all beginners at one time and had to go through the learning process so we do understand. As you spend time on the posted images and read the commentary you'll soon discover who will take the time to answer questions and post the kind of info you need at this time (which will change). Ask those people for help when you need it and offer your own insights on the images you look at.
That's my take on this. I too find that when I post an image that gets almost no comments I do wonder why and find myself trying to guess if the image was boring or poorly done or had no impact or... In the meantime I'll continue to comment.
Thanks Marc for this worthwhile topic. Excuse me if I expand on it a bit.
There are many internet web sites where people comment or critique web sized images and with the avalanche of digital cameras that is sure to grow in the coming few years. I've occasionally lurked and posted on many of them over the last few years and none have really suited my personal interests or amusement. Many are not much more than mutual admiration societies with backslapping one liners and little serious image critiquing. Most absolutely dislike anyone so bold as to post anything critical especially to any of a site's popular established members even if their images are obviously mediocre. Some sites are for fine art pros, others for informal snap shooters that care little about quality, others for focused enthusiasts like classic cars, and others for new users of the new DSLR wonders. Each to their own and each to their own level of seriousness.
One thing pretty universal is there always seems to be far more lurkers than commenters. Yes always many more Views than comments. There is some level of crude correlation between an image's quality and interest to the number of Views though that be just one factor of several. And with comments always many more one-liners and smilies than meaningful sentences. But hey a happy face is better than just a mysterious View. One almost never sees many frank and objective posts. After all one does not want to bruise egos and produce a crop of wrath that is sure to come from the many that take all this too seriously. So there are far more positive comments than even slightly negative or neutral comments. That despite the fact there are a lot of images many of us could really tear into. Those that think that not knowing the image creator's purpose and vision prevents meaningful criticism from being worthwhile are just dead wrong. So really mediocre images are most often simply ignored. Usually a few kind and considerate folk will gently offer some advice to usual novices that so post. If there is any system of ratings it is certain to end up as meaningless with many great images being ignored and mediocre images by popular and regular members rated highly. There is certain to be bickering and whining by some regardless of the format or guidelines that many obviously never read or ignored.
Like Marc I've wondered about his questions from time to time too. Of course hardly any of the lurker viewers are likely to post in a thread like this. Thanks to Jacco, Ana, Alice, and Kelly for stepping forward here and offering honest insightful feedback. I could add some speculation to what others have said. If I make a comment on someone's image, I may revisit the image the next day, then several days later, just to offer considerate followup in case another poster has a question or issue with what I posted. Also the thread creator that posted an image is obviously going to revisit a thread regularly in order to respond to those posting feedback. So right off the top we can "crop" away a lot of the View numbers as multiple views without any correlation to interest or quality. An forum algorithm that only counted a View once per forum member would deliver a more meaningful correlation.
A while back I created a thread that complained that many of those posting images for critique don't bother to include information as to equipment, setting, and method information as are in the forum posting guidelines. That apparently had zero impact as that is still the status quo for most. Such is just one factor that will make serious comment by some others less likely. When I see an image that looks manipulated and unnatural, I'd prefer to know a bit about the creation than leaving it up to the viewer'd imagination. For such posters, I might occasionally post a critical comment but otherwise would tend to view their images once without comments.
I also agree with Ed Dubois's thoughts and advice. There is nothing wrong making comments that are less than accurate or meaningful if posed thoughtfully in a relative context even if one is just a novice. There is much relative personal subjectiveness to such and people ought to give commentors consideration instead of being emotional and defensive. Consider that we are just looking at really tiny 720 pixel max images for a minute or so and then knocking out some quick comment. Such small images level a playing field such that a $50 one megapixel digital camera can produce web images as interesting as my 4x5 transparences after 300mb Tango scans. So don't expect always being right or being ashamed for not always being so. It is the modest price for speaking out in such public forums. I'm often wrong in evaluating my own images. I'll come back from some field trip, look at the results, and praise some images. But then after the glow of the trip wears off weeks later will sometimes look at an image I spent a whole lot of effort to get and felt so good about at the time and admit it did not make the grade. That it had serious flaws I was at the time not objective enough about. And there are always a few images I'll send out for expensive drums and then expensive large prints that in the end join the scrap heap. The reality is any of us are not always going to be accurate in our assessments of this artform, ought to accept that, and not let that deter one from exposing oneself in the community of public comment. ...David
Hi Marc! This has, indeed, been a very interesting thread. Almost every comment posted here has been a thought that I have had. Especially the time thing. (Hence, I am writing this on 7/28 when the last post was on 7/05!
Full time job, several side jobs and then trying to make this photography thing work really straps me for time. But I have loved this site for a couple of years before even becoming a member. Now that I am, I do try to comment at least on the images that spark me. I don't want to write the same ole thing either. (Oops, I just did!! )
Plus, as far as my photography experience goes, I have learned everything on my own through trial and (lots of ) errors and reading and I don't have enough confidence to try to help some one else when I don't neccessarily know myself. But this truly is a learning medium and I am happy to be a part of it. Thanks for "listening"!!
PS I am editing this comment because I was just trying to comment on someone's image and realized that I am not all that confident in my monitor. I may be seeing color hues that really aren't there and therefore, would feel foolish if what I critique isn't even an issue. How's that one? OR!! Lots of times, I feel an image is soft when no one else comments on such!
Discussion
34 repliesThis seems strange to me because I feel that I comment more than half the time when I open an image. I recently posted an image that took 140 views and two comments - I even left a note asking for any critiques or suggestions - but no one responded. This leaves me wondering.....why didn't people like the image? 2 of 140 felt inspired enough to even comment??? I thought it was a nice image, probably one of my best even, but I don't know anything about how others percieved it other than they didn't want to give a comment. This defeats the whole point of posting an image here IMO. To see what others responses to it will be!
I'm not trying to rant and complain about things, just curious to hear your take on this. Could it be 90% of views come from non-members? That members open a photo 5 times before they comment on it? Or that people look and just don't comment. I know when I ask for critique, it would be really appreciated to get some responses. I'll try my best to do the same for you!
Frustrating, isn't it? One redeeming aspect of the low number of comments is that it probably increases the signal-to-noise ratio.
Pete D.
Just out of curiosity, how many times do people look at a photo? When I see something interesting I just plain like to look at it a lot. Do other people find that just one look is enough?
So although maybe you think that the picture is not worth comments, it's probably more like people just are so impressed, they don't know what to say.
-jacco.
First - a funny fact. You have initiated 130 posts and made 1294 comments and I've made 133 posts and 1299 comments. I just find that sort of thing funny :). Although, we're both complete dabblers compared to someone like Guy Tal in terms of ratio of comments to posts.
At any rate, it's clear that you (like me) feel a sense of obligation to comment as well as post images (and clearly I was once much more active than I am now). It's part of being a contributing member of the comunity. And, on average, it seems to me that your photos (as an example) get a lot of views and comments - most of the time. This is partly because you are a contributing member of the community and partly because you're a very accomplished photographer - I am sure there are many people who actively seek out your images on the thumbnail page.
You're feeling a little frustrated that you're not getting the kind of feedback you want. And perhaps you're starting to question the judgement of the audience - who don't always respond the way you expect?
Well, I'll offer up a number of rather random observations that should be taken as nothing more than insights in to how I think rather than any sort of universal truths.
1. I'd venture that given your track record of images, most participants are probably hesitant to find fault with one of your images. And it's probably not so much that they 'dislike' it per se (you will tend to get some negative comments if people actively dislike something) - just that they don't like it as much as much as some of your other work or maybe they are just a bit indifferent.
2. What does it mean if an image is 'popular' on NPN versus 'unpopular'? Does this really equate with 'good' and 'bad'. (The existential question.) I concluded that 'popularity' and 'quality' had no correlation. Perhaps popularity is an indicator of potential commercial success - within certain venues anyway. I don't know.
3. I really don't know what I could say, by way of comments on one of your photographs, that would be genuinely useful to you. You obviously have a firm grasp of all the technical and design aspects - you certainly don't need further opinions on how you might have cropped or composed something differently. You also seem to have a real flair for creating dramatic, colourful images and from what I gather from various comments you've posted (here and elsewhere) this is what you're trying to accomplish. There's no doubt that your ability to find, conceive and execute on the kind of photographs you want to make is better than my ability to make those kinds of photographs - you're doing what you love and want to do.
4. Different people respond to different images. I have some 'hits' that tend to resonate with lots of people, but in general, I find that there is no consistency in what people like and don't like. Many people who like my 'Roads' photographs generally don't like my 'Prairie Waters' photographs (too pretty) and vice-versa (ie. the Roads are too 'ugly').
Cheers,
Eric
I could be mistaken but that reflection image of yours was posted yesterday or the day before but is no longer here. I'm sure you would have picked up more comments this week.
Actually (I'm saying it the first time here), I find it hard to digest that "'same old...waterfall and icon shots' from certain members" get something like 20+ coments just because of their track record and often good images by lesser known people get less comments although there is not much wrong with the image.
At the same time, I can not really fault some of the images. They have all the ingredients of a successful image, good light on peak, nice medow/cascade and all in the FG. All I can do is this -
On the other hand there are people like GuyT who take time to critique image so that the poster gets the point and it helps him. I always try to read their remarks on images posted. It helps me improve my craft both as a photographer and critiquer.
I may represent a significant number of "lookers" that don't post commentary. I have only being doing nature photography in earnest for about 9 months. I am still very much in "learn mode". When I view a photograph made by you or one of the other very talented and experienced photographers on the forum I do a mental critique and then refer to the subsequent postings to see if my ideas were anywhere near reality. Sometimes I'm on the money and sometimes I'm way off in left field, but the ratio is improving slowly. I'm still developing my critical eye and I learn a lot from reading the positive and negative commentary, and from studying the posts that leave people speechless. The staff showcase is a very humbling experience for me.
Give me a few years, a few successes, and maybe my head will get big enough that I get the idea I could teach you a thing or two. Until that day comes, I'll mosty look, learn, post images for review, and learn some more.
Eric, thanks. Yeah, our stats are astonishingly similar! Thanks for your thoughts. Let me just touch on one point - #3 specificly. I wan't to improve as a photographer. The advice, suggestions and comments I recieve here are my sole purpose for posting images. I have learned a considerable amount by posting images here. I have reposted and reworked images based on helpful suggestions by members and like the revisions I have made. No matter what amount of experience you have in photography, I believe you can learn a lot from others. The second one starts thinking 'my photos are perfect' and becomes very set in their ways and defensive, is when they stop improving. I look at others work every day and try to improve. I look at the works of masters like Guy Tal in astonishment at how diversely talented and visionary a photographic artist can be. I'd love to improve the diversity of my images! Just one of the many ways I'd like to improve. I would also gladly accept image critiques even from non-photographers - often very important! Photographer or not, the emotional response delivered by a photograph to the viewer is very important to me.
But even if you don't feel like critiquing an image (I know many don't), it's nice to recive acknowledgement anyway if you took the time to look. It helps validate the art form by knowing others enjoyed your work. I know a few of my comments are purely congratulatory statements, thanking the photographer for their contribution. If I take time to look, I usually take time to say something, even if just a WOW! or Nice One!
My personal goal is to keep my comments to posts ratio at 3or4:1, which has been suggested on previous threads. Sometimes I will comment on a photo the first time I view it, especially if I have a positive emotional response to it. Other times I will comment after viewing it and what others write about it, especially if I have mixed feelings about it. About twice a week I'll go to page 2 of the all photos gallery and look for photos that I might have overlooked and make comments then.
[rant]
I completely agree with you Marc. In the other galleries, such as flora, an image may get about 100 total views (give or take). I hate posting an image and getting 5 comments or so, with that many views. Especially since in the mean time I have posted comments to at least 10 images. If even just those people that I had commented for would post a comment to my images the ratio would be higher. (OK..so maybe I am ranting a bit).
Sorry, I do not have an answer, I just agree with you.
[/rant]
Nathan
Very, very true Nathan!
I look at many more images than I comment upon, and sometimes I will go back and view particular images many times. Since early in the year I have had many personal and work issues/concerns that have precluded me from veiwing images and making many comments in any of the forums. Now that things are setlling down a bit, I am more able to actively particpate.
So, I think for some folks, posting comments is a logistal matter, but that does not mean (necessarily) that they do not appreciate the images that they have taken the time to view.
Feedback on our efforts (regardless of the endeavor) is a basic need, and while written/spoken comments are nice to receive, even a small 'tip of the hat' (image 'views' in the present context) is a good thing, too. So, I have come to realize that even if an image does not receive many comments, but folks are looking at it, I am happy that they appreciate it enough to take a look-see.
-PB
You should feel very fortunate. You have probably garnered more comments from one of your images than I have ever received from all of my images combined.
It is hard for me to find pity for you, when my posts on average get 3-5 comments. Now that is hard to swallow when the work needed to capture and process images take quite a bit of work.
I find I just can't comment on every photo I open. With some, the photo just doesn't grab me even though there is nothing technically wrong with it that I can point to. WIth others I don't quite know what o make of them. What I try to do is give first priority to those images that have fewer than three comments, then those by new people, and then those are really DO grab me!
I have a photo posted in Man & Nature and it has 100 views and 2 comments. That really doesn't bother me. I know it's a decent shot but not spectacular. I'd rather just have a couple of comments rather than a bunch telling me it's "nice." I don't need the pat on the back so much. I get more of that on other forums for the shots I have published I suppose.
Kent in SD
1. NPN has excellent search engine rankings. Google phrases such as "nature photography", "wildlife photography", "landscape photography" or even just "nature" and NPN is very easy to find.
2. Unlike other nature photography sites, we do not require forum registration to simply view the IC galleries. I have always felt that requiring a registration for a casual observer is counter-productive.
Put those two things together and you have the answer - NPN gets nearly 2 million page views a month, many of them by those who visit simply to enjoy the incredible nature photography displayed on this site.
Could it be that 90% of views come from non-members? I have no hard stats to draw that conclusion, but I think it's safe to say that many of those views are from "casual observers" surfing in to enjoy our photography.
It does seem unusual for you to get 140 views and only 2 comments for an image; especially for that one. Sometimes I visit your posts and do not comment simply because what I would have written has already been done by others several time over. And there are so many of them already. I will if you don't mind the repitition.
On commenting in general, I find it overwhelming to try and comment on each image just in the ESS Gallery alone. They just come too fast. Even just looking at each and everyone is a daunting undertaking! And I need time to write something I think is meaningful. Try to imagine what it would be like to do so in all the galleries.
Will
Edmonton, Alberta
Canada
Keeping the doors open to everyone I think is good for all of us. As always, thanks for posting your work on NPN and helping to bring in the visitors!
I couldn't agree more Marc. I haven't even figured out what perfect means or looks like - so I guess I'm back at first principles or something :).
Here's the thing: I mostly stopped participating in online forums not because I stopped valuing the input and feedback of others but because I came to see my own comments and feedback as highly suspect. I see picture making as a complicated business that I poorly understand - I have a big enough struggle trying to figure out what kind of photographs I want to make let alone presuming I can sort someone else out!
I'm pretty happy to engage in a long conversation about my photographs or someone elses photographs but the brevity of most online exchanges seems fraught with pitfalls to me.
Cheers,
Eric
I would strongly make it a practice ( like Mark wrote in a past post on this thread) to at least put in a word e.r. nice-OK or something to let the poster know a NPN'er viewed the image.
Again, I usually post images I am on the fence about but I know any photographer worth his or hers salt would want to learn--learn--learn. Fortunately the resource we have here is sure worth the price of admission.
Thanks folks.
Good shooting!
JG
so I am curious as to how many guests really are here...
I wish this site had a feature that showed who was online and how many guests were online so we could get a feel for the ratio of guests to members...
First and foremost is the logistics. I have a demanding job that takes more of my time than it should, I have a long commute to and from work, I have a wife that demands a reasonable portion of my day most every day and I have a 56k modem connection that really only makes it to 47k on a good day. To make matters worse, I also have this new hobby called photography that I try to set aside a little time for now and then. Essentially I end up doing my posting and commenting between the hours of 10:00 PM and 1:00AM when I am pretty much exhausted. Therefore, with only a little bit of valuable time & energy available, I tend to look at as many photos as I can, read the comments to learn as much as I can from all the valuable insight and knowledge and then go back and comment on a select few that either struck me emotionally or that I felt that with my miniscule amount of experience and knowledge, I might actually be able to help someone with.
I also neglect to comment on a lot of photos because 1) everybody else has already repeated every thing I would be saying a number of times 2) I have no experience or knowledge and therefore no advice to offer on anything having to do with film, scanning, dSLRs, lenses, metering methods, tripods, etc, etc. 3) because of No. 2, I don't feel very comfortable offering opinions, let alone advice to the huge number of accomplished and skilled photographers on this site and 4) with only a few precious minutes to spend online I have to set priorities so I don't comment on photos that I don't find interesting or that I can't help someone with.
My contributions also tend to be sporadic because I try to catch up on those rare occasions when I actually have a large hunk of time to spend and I tend to comment more on weekends when I have a block of time during the day when I still have some energy left
After listening to some of the comments above, I can see at least one opportunity to improve my behavior. When I approve of an image but don't feel impressed or have time to critique it, I can at least leave a couple short words or a
However, in general, I agree with you, absolutely. For most pictures, there are not many comments, and even worse, usually the comments are very short. I personally am looking for critiques that help me improve what I do. So a "nice pic" is nice, because I then know at least somebody likes the image, but a "try this and that...", I'd appreciate even more, and I'm also trying to comment more than "nice pic", and sometimes don't comment if I can't. Just my personal perspective on this.
Basil
However. RE: Your point #2 - I feel you are way underestimating yourself when you say you have no experience/knowledge. Your images are wonderful; what you might lack in experience you certainly make up for in vision and compositional skill. I see no lack of knowledge at all - no one gets 'lucky' as as often as you.
Sorry for being so damn talkative.
Darren, something else was going on with your friend's PC, perhaps a slow connection or a browser problem. Anyone can visit the IC galleries and discussion forums and see (or read) everything there. Just log out and see for yourself.
A forum registration is required only to be able to post photos, topics or comments.
FWIW, I can truly relate to Gary's post too, especially point number one. Now I have to get back to getting the July edition online!
Lots of reasons why this ratio is as it is.
I have an even slower connection than Gary; it usually runs 26k to 28k. It takes me so long to get an image on my screen that I might as well comment on it while it's there, so I generally comment on every one that I look at. Sometimes, probably less than 15% of the time, I simply can't figure out what to say, so I go on to the next one.
I COMPLETELY agree with Bill and those who say that making comments is one of the best ways to improve your own photography understanding. Besides,as someone noted, it's your OPINION that we're asking for. Many times, it's that instantaneous gut reaction of "Yeah, I like that!" or "No, it just doesn't make an impact me," along with any more info that you can give that I would find valuable. Almost ANY comment helps the photographer.
I try to offer useful commentary when I can with suggestions that I think will give the photographer another technique or perhaps just another way of looking at the subject posted. I do also post a number of pats on the back. If someone has taken the time to prepare and post an image I do try to take the time to think about it and give some feedback. Sometimes a simple
For photographers who are new to nature photography or image making in general I suggest you not discount your own knowledge and stay silent but take the opportunity to post a question: I'd be surprised if anyone who posts would mind a "Wow. Can you explain how you...?" Also, the process of looking at and analysing any image is an excellent way to learn how photography is done.
Admittedly people post images for as many reasons are there are people: some folks are seriously trying to learn, some just want to show their images and some are looking for ego strokes. I find all these reasons valid IF the persons posting also take the time to comment on other people's images as well. There are some who post but never comment on anyone else's work and only respond to praise of their own images; those folks I just ignore as I don't feel they're here to participate in the community but rather are here to harvest praise for themselves.
To all the beginners I suggest you jump in and comment and question. We were all beginners at one time and had to go through the learning process so we do understand. As you spend time on the posted images and read the commentary you'll soon discover who will take the time to answer questions and post the kind of info you need at this time (which will change). Ask those people for help when you need it and offer your own insights on the images you look at.
That's my take on this. I too find that when I post an image that gets almost no comments I do wonder why and find myself trying to guess if the image was boring or poorly done or had no impact or...
There are many internet web sites where people comment or critique web sized images and with the avalanche of digital cameras that is sure to grow in the coming few years. I've occasionally lurked and posted on many of them over the last few years and none have really suited my personal interests or amusement. Many are not much more than mutual admiration societies with backslapping one liners and little serious image critiquing. Most absolutely dislike anyone so bold as to post anything critical especially to any of a site's popular established members even if their images are obviously mediocre. Some sites are for fine art pros, others for informal snap shooters that care little about quality, others for focused enthusiasts like classic cars, and others for new users of the new DSLR wonders. Each to their own and each to their own level of seriousness.
One thing pretty universal is there always seems to be far more lurkers than commenters. Yes always many more Views than comments. There is some level of crude correlation between an image's quality and interest to the number of Views though that be just one factor of several. And with comments always many more one-liners and smilies than meaningful sentences. But hey a happy face is better than just a mysterious View. One almost never sees many frank and objective posts. After all one does not want to bruise egos and produce a crop of wrath that is sure to come from the many that take all this too seriously. So there are far more positive comments than even slightly negative or neutral comments. That despite the fact there are a lot of images many of us could really tear into. Those that think that not knowing the image creator's purpose and vision prevents meaningful criticism from being worthwhile are just dead wrong. So really mediocre images are most often simply ignored. Usually a few kind and considerate folk will gently offer some advice to usual novices that so post. If there is any system of ratings it is certain to end up as meaningless with many great images being ignored and mediocre images by popular and regular members rated highly. There is certain to be bickering and whining by some regardless of the format or guidelines that many obviously never read or ignored.
Like Marc I've wondered about his questions from time to time too. Of course hardly any of the lurker viewers are likely to post in a thread like this. Thanks to Jacco, Ana, Alice, and Kelly for stepping forward here and offering honest insightful feedback. I could add some speculation to what others have said. If I make a comment on someone's image, I may revisit the image the next day, then several days later, just to offer considerate followup in case another poster has a question or issue with what I posted. Also the thread creator that posted an image is obviously going to revisit a thread regularly in order to respond to those posting feedback. So right off the top we can "crop" away a lot of the View numbers as multiple views without any correlation to interest or quality. An forum algorithm that only counted a View once per forum member would deliver a more meaningful correlation.
A while back I created a thread that complained that many of those posting images for critique don't bother to include information as to equipment, setting, and method information as are in the forum posting guidelines. That apparently had zero impact as that is still the status quo for most. Such is just one factor that will make serious comment by some others less likely. When I see an image that looks manipulated and unnatural, I'd prefer to know a bit about the creation than leaving it up to the viewer'd imagination. For such posters, I might occasionally post a critical comment but otherwise would tend to view their images once without comments.
http://www.naturephotographers.net/imagecritique/bbs.cgi?a=vm&mr=7649&b=vf2&st=120&la=1011&ph=158&sid=13486&u=13540
I also agree with Ed Dubois's thoughts and advice. There is nothing wrong making comments that are less than accurate or meaningful if posed thoughtfully in a relative context even if one is just a novice. There is much relative personal subjectiveness to such and people ought to give commentors consideration instead of being emotional and defensive. Consider that we are just looking at really tiny 720 pixel max images for a minute or so and then knocking out some quick comment. Such small images level a playing field such that a $50 one megapixel digital camera can produce web images as interesting as my 4x5 transparences after 300mb Tango scans. So don't expect always being right or being ashamed for not always being so. It is the modest price for speaking out in such public forums. I'm often wrong in evaluating my own images. I'll come back from some field trip, look at the results, and praise some images. But then after the glow of the trip wears off weeks later will sometimes look at an image I spent a whole lot of effort to get and felt so good about at the time and admit it did not make the grade. That it had serious flaws I was at the time not objective enough about. And there are always a few images I'll send out for expensive drums and then expensive large prints that in the end join the scrap heap. The reality is any of us are not always going to be accurate in our assessments of this artform, ought to accept that, and not let that deter one from exposing oneself in the community of public comment. ...David
Full time job, several side jobs and then trying to make this photography thing work really straps me for time. But I have loved this site for a couple of years before even becoming a member. Now that I am, I do try to comment at least on the images that spark me. I don't want to write the same ole thing either. (Oops, I just did!!
Plus, as far as my photography experience goes, I have learned everything on my own through trial and (lots of ) errors and reading and I don't have enough confidence to try to help some one else when I don't neccessarily know myself. But this truly is a learning medium and I am happy to be a part of it. Thanks for "listening"!!
PS I am editing this comment because I was just trying to comment on someone's image and realized that I am not all that confident in my monitor. I may be seeing color hues that really aren't there and therefore, would feel foolish if what I critique isn't even an issue. How's that one? OR!! Lots of times, I feel an image is soft when no one else comments on such!