In the spirit of generating discussion and meaningful critiques; I have an idea. We take a turn posting someone else's photo, the person's identity remains anonymous until the 72hr posting limit is up. Then that person who own's the image identity is revealed and hopefully adds to the discussion. Then that same person becomes the host for someone else's anonymous post.
There is one very important rule - DO NOT SEND ANYONE IMAGES UNLESS THEY SELECT YOU OR ASK DIRECTLY FOR YOUR EXAMPLE!
Here's how I see it working. People can e-mail me a short note telling me a bit about their image and why they want me to post it. From these notes I select one person to e-mail me their image. I post their image under the heading " The Anonymous Game". The image can be from any Forum.
People comment and critique the image, not knowing who owns it. When the 72 hrs is up, I reveal the author, and hopefully they add their comments. Then it's their turn. They use their next turn to post someone else's image and the game goes on from there.
Perhaps it would be wise to make a post in this forum , like I am, asking people to submit their suggestions when it's your turn - remember please e-mail no images until you are asked.
So, how about it? Come on let's play! I think it will be both fun and interesting.
I asking now, please send me your ideas via e-mail and I'll select one person to e-mail me their image and post it!
Ok I got 80 views or something like that and not one e-mail ! So. I thought I would take a second and explain why I think this is a good idea. It's not just about getting more honest critiques. I think we have that now. To me, it's really about getting more thoughtful critiques.
For example, a novice looks at an image from one of the more well known names here, heck
very many of the photographers here, and they are intimidated, sometimes, to even offer an opinion, because they feel they are only a beginner, what can they offer an established photographer for advice. I'm hoping that once they see that there are many other sides to a critique other than just technique, perhaps they'll realize that their opinion is just as valuable and as useful as anybody else's. It's easier to do that if they don't know if the image is from a world famous pro, or a novice just like them.
Also, I've seen times where the pros have asked for tougher critiques ( also novices have said the same ) because they can take it and very much value the input. But people sometimes hesitate because of the name attached; they don't want to hurt a novice's feelings or be really direct with someone they know and like.
To me, though what I would hope to see is people post images that are not their usual style, both to play the game and not let people guess who they are, and as an opportunity to post something out of their comfort zone. I feel once the critiques start , we will all learn to look a little closer, study all aspects of it first, before responding, with a quick "should have used the rule of thirds' like they might if they KNEW the image was from a beginner.
Besides, forgetting all of the above, wouldn't it just be fun trying guess who's image it is? Wouldn't it be fun to try and hide your identify by using a style that is not usually associated with your work? Might be the perfect time to try something different.
All it will cost is one turn of you usual post in one gallery.
You guys aren't going to make me beg for participants are you?
Shouldn't be that big a problem. I mean, if the owner of the anonymous image is concerned about theft, they can put some text on their own image before emailing it to Tim (or the subsequent "host" poster). It doesn't have to have their real name; if the main object is to render the image unusable then just put "not for use" or a big copyright symbol or something. It's completely within the image owner's control to take whatever steps they wish.
With regards to "managing" the anonymous images, the owner could arrange with the "host" to delete it after a week, or whatever they're comfortable with. I know we aren't supposed to delete posts with comments but if the post says up front "this will be deleted on X date", I don't think people would mind.
Cindy wrote ; like the idea.. it could be interesting to say the least..
will send a photo today :)
ps, could you make your email address public? that may help ;)
Cindy,
Please do not send me any photos! Repeat, do not send me any photos ! ( See Above ).
I'm on dial up, besides after telling everyone you were going to do it, how anonymous
would that be? HaHa!
I did have my e-mail address at first, then decided to use the NPN button up above there. I figure there must be a reason people don't make their e-mail public?
John, well to be honest I didn't think of that, but I don't place a copyright on my images, since the site states all images are copyright protected. I don't see that many other people doing it either. But if that's an issue, perhaps a generic copyright mark on the image when you send it the the host would be the answer.After 72 hrs you can relplace it with your personal one.
Anyways, I am going to go with the first person that accepted the challenge! I figure ( pardon the term ) if they have the ba_ _s to step up to the plate first, then they should be the one to make history! Thanks, Tim
PS -stay tuned for a link to the image and those of you who wanted to post something, e-mail me a message ( no images ) and if it falls into another catagory , I'll post yours too! Thanks, Tim
Posted by Sean Depuydt on July 24, 2006 at 6:30 AM
Tim, I'm intereseted, but don't have an image ready. When one is ready, I will e-mail one to you. Sounds very different, good idea.
This is a good idea. I hope some of the excellent photographers here agree to play along. I suggested once that all posts appear without attribution until a few days had gone by. Your anonymous game achieves that for a few willing photographers without having to change the whole system. If enough people participate there are some interesting things that might come to light. I'll play, why not?
This sounds like a great idea. The first image looks like a "safe bet" though. Who can fault such incredible light? Let's see some more controversial work
Yeak I agree Guy. It will be interesting, if and when someone post something that most people just don't get ( like one of mine ) . Where the heck is Mark when you need him? Ha Ha! Anyways. tonight the secret will be revealed ! I think you will be surprised a bit. Maybe not. Tim
Ok, what's going on? That first image has more comments than I think I've EVER gotten. No, it is not my photograph.
Is the fact that we don't know who it belongs to making us more open? Is it just the novelty of the experiment? Is it just a fabulous photograph? Let's try a few more and see what happens.
Very interesting. This is virtually a sociology experiment, if I understand what sociology is (I don't think I do). I never could get my roommate to define it, even though it was his major!
Wow Ana, I am surprised - it's a departure from your usual style. It is a truly remarkable image. I like the way this game is working so far.
Guy
Posted by Jim Erhardt on July 25, 2006 at 11:48 PM
Yes, I too like the way this activity worked out. Nice shot Ana - I never would have guessed either!
Posted by Mary Dennis on July 26, 2006 at 12:45 AM
Ha! I had a sneaking feeling because I knew you had been out West and you were one of the first to respond to Tim's idea!! And you didn't offer a critique for it!
I don't know though....were the critques any more valuable to you? I still think most be people will dance around a bit for fear of offending someone they just don't want to offend. Could be perceived as being a little more "dangerous" than simply being upfront with someone non-anonymously. I understand the idea but it feels a little devious to me. I think to get a truly honest critique there would have to be a stipulation that the creator of the image would NOT be revealed. Remove the personalities and concentrate on the image. I guess that would take the "guessing game" fun away though.
Mary -- Yeah, I was thinking, "I hope no one notices the unnatural silence from this corner..."
Re, how useful it was: I don't think the critiques were actually that much more useful (although of course, there were certainly more of them, which was a big plus!), but as a periodic exercise I think the game has a lot to offer.
A lot of the value I got out of this was that it made me think about my own habits, both posting and commenting. It got me thinking about what I choose to post and why. I've actually got quite a backlog of this type of shot that I just never show. But maybe now I will post the occassional one (if nothing else it might be fun to see people's heads spinning ). And as I mentioned on the image thread, I realized that there are some people that I've been observing and have formed the preconception that they probably wouldn't value my input and so I just don't comment on their posts. Which could be doing both sides a disservice. So I think this sort of thing is nice in that it gives people an opportunity to comment on something they normally wouldn't.
I think people were more up front. But part of that was the novelty, and because so many people were jumping in --kind of a carnival atmosphere.
And of course, a critique is frequently a lot more valueable when the critiquer knows your work. Especially for those whose style is not always accessible. And anonymity would scuttle those long back-and-forth threads that actually the most fun and useful. So I probably wouldn't choose to do this as a matter of course.
I think it would actually be more useful if the commenters were anonymous, rather than the photographer! Or both. (And if the commenters were anonymous, I agree their identity should never be revealed.)
"So. I thought I would take a second and explain why I think this is a good idea. It's not just about getting more honest critiques. I think we have that now. To me, it's really about getting more thoughtful critiques."
That really was my feeling. Just to try and place more emphasis
on the critique side of things , as opposed to the image. The only reason to reveal the photographer at all, is so that the game can continue and move around a bit.
Thanks, Tim
Posted by Nathan Buck on July 26, 2006 at 12:10 PM
So Ana...where exactly was the shot from? That was part of the fun too.
Nathan --it's from antelope flats just outside Grand Teton NP. Yeah, it was interesting reading the places it reminded people of. I will have to visit the eastern sierras and the okanagan sometime! I put the location, and a couple of thoughts that occurred to me while the game was going on, in my comment on the image thread.
if the owner of the anonymous image is concerned about theft, they can put some text on their own image before emailing it to Tim (or the subsequent "host" poster). It doesn't have to have their real name; if the main object is to render the image unusable then just put "not for use" or a big copyright symbol or something. It's completely within the image owner's control to take whatever steps they wish.
That is not a good idea.
It is not "completely within the image owner's control to take whatever steps they wish."
Laberling an image with false ID info can VOID its copyright protection, and it is what the copyright laws say that controls the matter, not the owner. The owner follows all copyright laws, or the owner has no copyright at all, and following this suggestion could cost you DEARLY!
Thanks, Paul! I would never have imagined this was the case. Just to be clear, I wasn't suggesting putting a false name on the image, just some text like "not for use". But again, I apologize for making the suggestion as it clearly might have unintended consequences!
I think the easiest solution is to just post something you know nobody wants to steal ! Really, it's about the discussion not so much about posting your prized shots. We get enough of that in the regular posts. Besides, if someone really wants to steal an image here, they can do so in about two seconds, editing around a copyright symbol doesn't take much longer. I thought every image posted here is the property of the author and he / she owns the copyright, as stated in the site layout.
Like I said if you are worried about it, post something that you wouldn't want to publish, something with some obvious flaws, see if the feedback matches your disappointment. How often do we see those images posted up on the forums here?
It's the thought that counts , not so much the image. Thanks, Tim
Discussion
24 repliesIn the spirit of generating discussion and meaningful critiques; I have an idea. We take a turn posting someone else's photo, the person's identity remains anonymous until the 72hr posting limit is up. Then that person who own's the image identity is revealed and hopefully adds to the discussion. Then that same person becomes the host for someone else's anonymous post.
There is one very important rule - DO NOT SEND ANYONE IMAGES UNLESS THEY SELECT YOU OR ASK DIRECTLY FOR YOUR EXAMPLE!
Here's how I see it working. People can e-mail me a short note telling me a bit about their image and why they want me to post it. From these notes I select one person to e-mail me their image. I post their image under the heading " The Anonymous Game". The image can be from any Forum.
People comment and critique the image, not knowing who owns it. When the 72 hrs is up, I reveal the author, and hopefully they add their comments. Then it's their turn. They use their next turn to post someone else's image and the game goes on from there.
Perhaps it would be wise to make a post in this forum , like I am, asking people to submit their suggestions when it's your turn - remember please e-mail no images until you are asked.
So, how about it? Come on let's play! I think it will be both fun and interesting.
I asking now, please send me your ideas via e-mail and I'll select one person to e-mail me their image and post it!
The Game Begins!
For example, a novice looks at an image from one of the more well known names here, heck
very many of the photographers here, and they are intimidated, sometimes, to even offer an opinion, because they feel they are only a beginner, what can they offer an established photographer for advice. I'm hoping that once they see that there are many other sides to a critique other than just technique, perhaps they'll realize that their opinion is just as valuable and as useful as anybody else's. It's easier to do that if they don't know if the image is from a world famous pro, or a novice just like them.
Also, I've seen times where the pros have asked for tougher critiques ( also novices have said the same ) because they can take it and very much value the input. But people sometimes hesitate because of the name attached; they don't want to hurt a novice's feelings or be really direct with someone they know and like.
To me, though what I would hope to see is people post images that are not their usual style, both to play the game and not let people guess who they are, and as an opportunity to post something out of their comfort zone. I feel once the critiques start , we will all learn to look a little closer, study all aspects of it first, before responding, with a quick "should have used the rule of thirds' like they might if they KNEW the image was from a beginner.
Besides, forgetting all of the above, wouldn't it just be fun trying guess who's image it is? Wouldn't it be fun to try and hide your identify by using a style that is not usually associated with your work? Might be the perfect time to try something different.
All it will cost is one turn of you usual post in one gallery.
You guys aren't going to make me beg for participants are you?
Come on , make history be the first to try it!
With regards to "managing" the anonymous images, the owner could arrange with the "host" to delete it after a week, or whatever they're comfortable with. I know we aren't supposed to delete posts with comments but if the post says up front "this will be deleted on X date", I don't think people would mind.
will send a photo today :)
ps, could you make your email address public? that may help ;)
Cindy,
Please do not send me any photos! Repeat, do not send me any photos ! ( See Above ).
I'm on dial up, besides after telling everyone you were going to do it, how anonymous
would that be? HaHa!
I did have my e-mail address at first, then decided to use the NPN button up above there. I figure there must be a reason people don't make their e-mail public?
John, well to be honest I didn't think of that, but I don't place a copyright on my images, since the site states all images are copyright protected. I don't see that many other people doing it either. But if that's an issue, perhaps a generic copyright mark on the image when you send it the the host would be the answer.After 72 hrs you can relplace it with your personal one.
Anyways, I am going to go with the first person that accepted the challenge! I figure ( pardon the term ) if they have the ba_ _s to step up to the plate first, then they should be the one to make history! Thanks, Tim
PS -stay tuned for a link to the image and those of you who wanted to post something, e-mail me a message ( no images ) and if it falls into another catagory , I'll post yours too! Thanks, Tim
Pete D.
Definitely put my name on the list.
Kent in SD
Please note ,any forum can be used , this just happens to ESS. Thanks, Tim
Guy
Is the fact that we don't know who it belongs to making us more open? Is it just the novelty of the experiment? Is it just a fabulous photograph? Let's try a few more and see what happens.
Very interesting. This is virtually a sociology experiment, if I understand what sociology is (I don't think I do). I never could get my roommate to define it, even though it was his major!
Pete D.
Thanks to everyone who commented! ]The first image was mine.
Any deep thoughts on whether knowing the photographer made a difference?
And of course the next part --I am soliciting the next victim! Who wants to play? Send me email if you would like me to "host" your anonymous photo!
Guy
I don't know though....were the critques any more valuable to you? I still think most be people will dance around a bit for fear of offending someone they just don't want to offend. Could be perceived as being a little more "dangerous" than simply being upfront with someone non-anonymously. I understand the idea but it feels a little devious to me. I think to get a truly honest critique there would have to be a stipulation that the creator of the image would NOT be revealed. Remove the personalities and concentrate on the image. I guess that would take the "guessing game" fun away though.
Re, how useful it was: I don't think the critiques were actually that much more useful (although of course, there were certainly more of them, which was a big plus!), but as a periodic exercise I think the game has a lot to offer.
A lot of the value I got out of this was that it made me think about my own habits, both posting and commenting. It got me thinking about what I choose to post and why. I've actually got quite a backlog of this type of shot that I just never show. But maybe now I will post the occassional one (if nothing else it might be fun to see people's heads spinning
I think people were more up front. But part of that was the novelty, and because so many people were jumping in --kind of a carnival atmosphere.
And of course, a critique is frequently a lot more valueable when the critiquer knows your work. Especially for those whose style is not always accessible. And anonymity would scuttle those long back-and-forth threads that actually the most fun and useful. So I probably wouldn't choose to do this as a matter of course.
I think it would actually be more useful if the commenters were anonymous, rather than the photographer! Or both. (And if the commenters were anonymous, I agree their identity should never be revealed.)
"So. I thought I would take a second and explain why I think this is a good idea. It's not just about getting more honest critiques. I think we have that now. To me, it's really about getting more thoughtful critiques."
That really was my feeling. Just to try and place more emphasis
on the critique side of things , as opposed to the image. The only reason to reveal the photographer at all, is so that the game can continue and move around a bit.
Thanks, Tim
Nathan
if the owner of the anonymous image is concerned about theft, they can put some text on their own image before emailing it to Tim (or the subsequent "host" poster). It doesn't have to have their real name; if the main object is to render the image unusable then just put "not for use" or a big copyright symbol or something. It's completely within the image owner's control to take whatever steps they wish.
That is not a good idea.
It is not "completely within the image owner's control to take whatever steps they wish."
Laberling an image with false ID info can VOID its copyright protection, and it is what the copyright laws say that controls the matter, not the owner. The owner follows all copyright laws, or the owner has no copyright at all, and following this suggestion could cost you DEARLY!
Do not follow them and you can end up loosing the copyright altogether.
Like I said if you are worried about it, post something that you wouldn't want to publish, something with some obvious flaws, see if the feedback matches your disappointment. How often do we see those images posted up on the forums here?
It's the thought that counts , not so much the image. Thanks, Tim