Posted by Bill Chambers on July 25, 2006 at 10:25 AM
Jim - just a thought here. I don't know the exact process used in selecting the Editor's Picks each week, but I would love to see a critique/explanation from whomever makes the choices as to what led them to pick the image they chose. I think that would be a great learning tool for others. I envision something similar to the critiques on The Radiant Vista website, only not a video. Any possibilities in this area?
the moderators submit recommendations to Jim who makes the ultimate pick
Not in Avian, Garth and I make the pick and send it to Jim. I can't promise to do this every week, but I'll try and add a comment to the Editor's Pick announcement topic on why we chose a particular image each week.
Posted by Kent Staubus on July 25, 2006 at 11:10 AM
David & I usually send about 5 each to Jim, who makes the pick. Often David & I do write a quick sentence about why we selected that shot. Don't know why those couldn't be added.
Good idea...I have often wondered why certain images were selected (not that they're not all fantastic images)... But sometimes there are so many great ones to choose from I wonder how it was narrowed down.
But sometimes there are so many great ones to choose from I wonder how it was narrowed down.
Alice, you've hit the nail right on the head. Every week there are multiple images that could easily be picked. There are a number of factors used when Garth and I make a pick. We always start with the NPN Editor's Pick criteria. Viewer response and comments are always taken into consideration. Sometimes it's obvious to both of us which image is best, most times not. Sometimes we even argue about it. In the end we always come up with one, of course. Not everyone will agree with our pick, but that's to be expected. After all, it is a subjective choice that's rarely easy.
I don't know Doug. I kinda like the unknown element behind the current system, but would like to be able to learn more from the picks. The rating system you speak of seems to have many weakness (vote early, vote often syndrome), obvious politicin', popularity contest, et al. There's something reassuring about having the entire weight of responsibilty on one set of shoulders (as long as they're non-partial and not mine). I think the moderators and Jim have done a fantastic job so far, and I'm just real happy they have the job and not me!
I'm ambivalent about this.
Against knowing why a pick was picked---
I'm only occasionly reminded of the contest aspect of posting here, eg when I happen to get an EP (you know, even a blind hog finds an acorn every once in a while). Keeping competition low key is part of what keeps the place friendly. Keeping the editor's picking practices private afirms the equal value of all sincere critiques. I like the way it is now. I see the EPs as "Here are a few photographs that were chosen by a mysterious force as being worth looking at again. Below are some critiques of the photograph. Feel free to comment.
For knowing ---
I generally agree that the EPs are good choices. So the pickers know what they're doing. One more good comment is another bit to learn from. Unless all you pickers just say, "Wow! Great Shot!"
I will admit some frustration about having an EP at all. Mainly because I feel that this encourages many awesome shots to be posted, but not those that people need to have opinions on to learn from. Consider if I wanted to feel eligible for an EP each week I would choose the best shots that I take and never post a shot that I might want some feedback on, that I knew was not the best.
I usually go to see who the EP's were, but try not to worry about it much because that is not why I post on NPN.
It also frustrates me that some people can post image after image that take EP's, but not contribute by commenting on any images here.
* only paid NPN members are eligible;
* an EP will not make anyone rich or famous. I don't see any impetus in posting only what the individual may consider to be EP-potential candidates;
* ESS picks: the moderators take turn making final picks; there is no concensus. With three moderators (Baumbach, Gordon, & Tal), we're each making a pick every three weeks.
* How do I pick? I base it on almost entirely on creativity and originality. In my book, the most amazing technique will take a backseat to amazing vision or and/or originality. If it's exciting and different, it'll always be the winner for me.
Rating system: what's the point, really? It's very well disliked by photo.net people, and I can't see what good it offers. With respect to ESS, if we had a public rating system, I could probably make a couple of strong guesses as to whom might take most of the EP's
Personally, I would like to keep the EPs as low-key as possible. It's a fun weekly activity, but I think cultivating a competitive atmosphere would be counter-productive. For this reason, I am also opposed to any rating system. I think we strike a pretty good balance as is.
As to commentary why a photo was selected, I would have no objection to that.
I agree with Jim, don't mess with a good thing. I can understand some frustration with members who feel their image was as good or better than the winner. Having been selecting the weekly EP for 2-1/2 years, I can tell you it's very difficult to select just a few images for EP consideration. Many times I've flagged 7 or 8 images and getting down to the 3 that I send to Jim is not only difficult buy many times very time consuming.
As far as writing a short description as to why a particular image was selected is OK with me. But I will tell for me to consider an image it will have all of the following four merits: composition, light, clarity and visual appeal. It one of those elements are missing, it's difficult for me to include that image in the final selection.
I am diffinetly not in favor of any type of rating system. Those systems just create splinter groups that vote each other to the top. The worse case scenerio is the Picture-A-Day group on pbase. Look at the Popular Photo pages and in most cases it will turn your stomach.
Posted by Marc Adamus on July 25, 2006 at 10:33 PM
I agree exactly with what Jim says.
The last thing I would ever want here would be some numeric-rating garbage like can be found on Photo.net and other sites!!! This is extremely counter productive, discouraging, negative, competative and useless.
I'm just curious, since we often hear about wanting to foster more on the critique side of things; why don't we have an EP pick for critique of the week?
Also, in my opinion, it just seems misguided for anything other than new images, taken for that purpose, to be picked for the Weekly Challenge. I mean, what's the point otherwise?
With respect, Tim
Posted by Lee Robinson on July 25, 2006 at 10:41 PM
I think Nathan is on to something here. The image forums are Critique forums, not showcase forums. Why post an outstanding photograph that garners 32 attaboys? Instead, as Nathan suggests, why not post only images that you'd like some serious feedback on?
There are some truly wonderful photographer members here who display some absolutely wonderful photography that belongs in a Showcase forum, since their work clearly needs no improvement.
Posted by Jim Erhardt on July 25, 2006 at 11:38 PM
I think the "showcase photos" are important too as they can give something to aspire to. No doubt, there are some incredible photographers on this site and I think the inclusion of their work in the IC galleries is a very important ingredient in the mix.
I would also like to second what Ronnie Gaubert said - there is a great deal of time and effort put into the weekly EPs. If it wasn't for the NPN moderators, the EPs simply wouldn't happen. I cannot thank them enough as this task would be impossible without their help!
At 52 years old, I thought life would be getting easier by now. But as every day goes by, life seems to grow busier and more difficult - and I know I'm not alone in making this observation. Working a full time job, being a father, a husband and around-the-home handyman, it's a miracle any of us can find time to enjoy photography, much less time to participate in any group activity such as NPN. And when we do find the time, it's ultimately up to each of us to make the most of it.
Thanks to all of you for making NPN such a great place!
Posted by Lee Robinson on July 26, 2006 at 12:15 AM
What? You have a life outside of photography? Don't let my wife hear you say that!
Thanks to you, too, Jim. And Donna, too. You've made this a great site.
Don't change the way the EP's are picked, I have to agree with Jim and the other moderators about this subject. I think you all do a great job and I hope by saying this my next image will get to the EP this week
Posted by Bill Chambers on July 26, 2006 at 12:11 PM
Thanks John, I couldn't have said it better myself. In fact, I didn't.
One slight revison, or perhaps explanation; and we may be saying the same thing. I'm NOT asking for the thinking of the selection folks here (i.e., the recipe for EP's). I asking for a more detailed critique of the image itself - what makes the image successful as an image, not just for EP purposes. I would love to hear the strong/weak points of comp, exposure, post processing, etc. Things I can bite into,learn from, and apply to my images.
So, without changing the present selection mechanism it would be nice to know the reasons, the thinking behind each selection. Especially when it comes to picking one among many images of comparable overall quality... what was the one(?) factor that put the selected image over the top?
Keep in mind is that these are Editor's Picks. There really needn't be further justification or explanation beyond "I like this one the most!. This isn't Photographer of the Year, Nature's Best, Photo Techniques of the Year, or World's Most Amazing Images - it's just the respective moderator/editor's favorite. I think some of you may be intellectualizing and overanalyzing this process too much.
I rarely have or need more justification than *most original and/or creative*. Does this make me a bad moderator?
I understand what you are saying but I did not read Bill's suggestion as a request for "justification" -- only a wish that there would be more sharing about the photograph, so we can "see what you see" and learn something from your considerable experience. (E.g. your experience in evaluating numerous images for an EP, in addition to your own photographic experience.)
John: I'm not sure what my experience has to do with it. What I see is what I see. I either like and connect with the photograph or do not. Describing how I arrive there is irrelevant, IMO. From a technical standpoint, there's probably no higher quality collection of images online anywhere than on Page 1 of the ESS gallery at any given time! An extraordinary number of them don't really need critiquing or advice, and most, if not all, are worthy of Editor's Pick.
Again, I make my picks based on originality and creativity and because I overwhelmingly like the image. IMO, giving further explanation verges on overanalysis, and I'm not really into it. I prefer to let the images speak for themselves.
As Jim said, EP is a low key thing, and I'm faithfully following his orders
Posted by Dan Baumbach on July 27, 2006 at 3:33 PM
I'm the last ES&S moderator who hasn't responded here. In general, I agree with Michael and Jim. My first criteria for a pick is that the photo has to move me. The second is originality. A photo of Yosemite's Tunnel View will have to be totally amazing for me to give it a pick. Yet that view is so beautiful that it's rare that I'm not moved by an image from that place. The third is that I like to spread the wealth around so if there are a few images that I feel are worthy, I'll pick the image from someone who hasn't won before.
I take the job of making a pick seriously and I make sure to look at all images on ES&S no matter how busy I am. However, like Jim, I am very busy and am stretched for time. If I had to write a paragraph on why a particular image got a pick other than I liked it, I would probably pass the picking duties on to someone else.
That said, if you feel so moved to ask me why a particular pick was made, I would do my best to respond to your email.
- Dan
Posted by Dan Baumbach on July 27, 2006 at 3:40 PM
I'd like to add one more point about my resistance to writing about what made me pick a certain photo. Unlike some people here, I'm not a particularly good writer and dont' have the articulateness of Guy Tal. Photography, for me is a visual and emotional medium and I respond to it that way. Writing about what I love in a particular photo is like writing about why I love my wife. No matter what I say, it really hasn't touched the matter.
Dan wrote: "Writing about what I love in a particular photo is like writing about why I love my wife. No matter what I say, it really hasn't touched the matter. "
Excellent point, Dan! I think it also explains why it is difficult for most of us to write about why (or why not) a particular image moves us.
Discussion
26 repliesGuy
Not in Avian, Garth and I make the pick and send it to Jim. I can't promise to do this every week, but I'll try and add a comment to the Editor's Pick announcement topic on why we chose a particular image each week.
Kent in SD
John - you lost me. What are the 2 levels you mentioned? Maybe I should read the guidelines or something. Nah, let's not get drastic yet.
Alice, you've hit the nail right on the head. Every week there are multiple images that could easily be picked. There are a number of factors used when Garth and I make a pick. We always start with the NPN Editor's Pick criteria. Viewer response and comments are always taken into consideration. Sometimes it's obvious to both of us which image is best, most times not. Sometimes we even argue about it.
Against knowing why a pick was picked---
I'm only occasionly reminded of the contest aspect of posting here, eg when I happen to get an EP (you know, even a blind hog finds an acorn every once in a while). Keeping competition low key is part of what keeps the place friendly. Keeping the editor's picking practices private afirms the equal value of all sincere critiques. I like the way it is now. I see the EPs as "Here are a few photographs that were chosen by a mysterious force as being worth looking at again. Below are some critiques of the photograph. Feel free to comment.
For knowing ---
I generally agree that the EPs are good choices. So the pickers know what they're doing. One more good comment is another bit to learn from. Unless all you pickers just say, "Wow! Great Shot!"
Pete D.
I usually go to see who the EP's were, but try not to worry about it much because that is not why I post on NPN.
It also frustrates me that some people can post image after image that take EP's, but not contribute by commenting on any images here.
Nathan
* only paid NPN members are eligible;
* an EP will not make anyone rich or famous. I don't see any impetus in posting only what the individual may consider to be EP-potential candidates;
* ESS picks: the moderators take turn making final picks; there is no concensus. With three moderators (Baumbach, Gordon, & Tal), we're each making a pick every three weeks.
* How do I pick? I base it on almost entirely on creativity and originality. In my book, the most amazing technique will take a backseat to amazing vision or and/or originality. If it's exciting and different, it'll always be the winner for me.
Rating system: what's the point, really? It's very well disliked by photo.net people, and I can't see what good it offers. With respect to ESS, if we had a public rating system, I could probably make a couple of strong guesses as to whom might take most of the EP's
As to commentary why a photo was selected, I would have no objection to that.
As far as writing a short description as to why a particular image was selected is OK with me. But I will tell for me to consider an image it will have all of the following four merits: composition, light, clarity and visual appeal. It one of those elements are missing, it's difficult for me to include that image in the final selection.
I am diffinetly not in favor of any type of rating system. Those systems just create splinter groups that vote each other to the top. The worse case scenerio is the Picture-A-Day group on pbase. Look at the Popular Photo pages and in most cases it will turn your stomach.
The last thing I would ever want here would be some numeric-rating garbage like can be found on Photo.net and other sites!!! This is extremely counter productive, discouraging, negative, competative and useless.
Also, in my opinion, it just seems misguided for anything other than new images, taken for that purpose, to be picked for the Weekly Challenge. I mean, what's the point otherwise?
With respect, Tim
There are some truly wonderful photographer members here who display some absolutely wonderful photography that belongs in a Showcase forum, since their work clearly needs no improvement.
I would also like to second what Ronnie Gaubert said - there is a great deal of time and effort put into the weekly EPs. If it wasn't for the NPN moderators, the EPs simply wouldn't happen. I cannot thank them enough as this task would be impossible without their help!
At 52 years old, I thought life would be getting easier by now. But as every day goes by, life seems to grow busier and more difficult - and I know I'm not alone in making this observation. Working a full time job, being a father, a husband and around-the-home handyman, it's a miracle any of us can find time to enjoy photography, much less time to participate in any group activity such as NPN. And when we do find the time, it's ultimately up to each of us to make the most of it.
Thanks to all of you for making NPN such a great place!
Thanks to you, too, Jim. And Donna, too. You've made this a great site.
One slight revison, or perhaps explanation; and we may be saying the same thing. I'm NOT asking for the thinking of the selection folks here (i.e., the recipe for EP's). I asking for a more detailed critique of the image itself - what makes the image successful as an image, not just for EP purposes. I would love to hear the strong/weak points of comp, exposure, post processing, etc. Things I can bite into,learn from, and apply to my images.
Keep in mind is that these are Editor's Picks. There really needn't be further justification or explanation beyond "I like this one the most!. This isn't Photographer of the Year, Nature's Best, Photo Techniques of the Year, or World's Most Amazing Images - it's just the respective moderator/editor's favorite. I think some of you may be intellectualizing and overanalyzing this process too much.
I rarely have or need more justification than *most original and/or creative*. Does this make me a bad moderator?
John: I'm not sure what my experience has to do with it. What I see is what I see. I either like and connect with the photograph or do not. Describing how I arrive there is irrelevant, IMO. From a technical standpoint, there's probably no higher quality collection of images online anywhere than on Page 1 of the ESS gallery at any given time! An extraordinary number of them don't really need critiquing or advice, and most, if not all, are worthy of Editor's Pick.
Again, I make my picks based on originality and creativity and because I overwhelmingly like the image. IMO, giving further explanation verges on overanalysis, and I'm not really into it. I prefer to let the images speak for themselves.
As Jim said, EP is a low key thing, and I'm faithfully following his orders
I take the job of making a pick seriously and I make sure to look at all images on ES&S no matter how busy I am. However, like Jim, I am very busy and am stretched for time. If I had to write a paragraph on why a particular image got a pick other than I liked it, I would probably pass the picking duties on to someone else.
That said, if you feel so moved to ask me why a particular pick was made, I would do my best to respond to your email.
- Dan
- Dan.
Excellent point, Dan! I think it also explains why it is difficult for most of us to write about why (or why not) a particular image moves us.
-PB