I have a fly shop here in Colorado who wants me to spend a day on their private water shooting fly fishing photos for their website, brochures, and the whole nine yards. I sell prints at galleries, but I've never actually done an assignment like this. Could someone give me some guidelines for doing this? He wants unlimited rights to the images. What should I tell him for a day's worth of my photography? I have to get back to him Friday. Thanks a lot!
In my opinion you should first decide if you want to do it as work-for-hire on a Time-and-Materials basis (i.e. get paid by the hour and cover your material expenses) or on a rights basis (i.e. you put in whatever amout of work it takes and get paid by the number of images and associated rights they want).
You can set a base rate just to make sure nobody has an incentive to take advantage of the other side.
Thanks, Guy. The base rate is a good idea. As far as pricing for individual images...how do you think these should compare to my print prices? This is all I have to base my prices on. If there is anyone out there that wouldn't mind talking to me in person, please let me know.
oops... LOL... I see this was double posted I just answered it in the other post... LOL
here it is... >
Kevin I have to say the the ratio for figuring out the cost for photography can & does vary widely... I find the best way for me is to charge by the hour, plus extra charges for full copyrights ( which can be very high depending on the type of images...)
if they agree to have my logo on the work ofcourse I give a much better deal on the copyrights...
I do have a contract that they must sign & all future prints must be done though one of three labs I use... very important to me because I do not want them getting prints done that are are not of my level of standards...
wish I could give you numbers but that really is a personal thing...
maybe some others that do a bit more of the fish shooting will beable to post some thoughts for you...
best of luck with this Kevin...
oh yeah & please don't under pay yourself... your work is worth it...
Prices for prints and prices for licensing are like apples and oranges.
The images you produce for this shop will make them money. If a client buys a print, it's for their enjoyment.
Here's another instance when a copy of Fotoquote will pay for itself with the first job. Not only is it a stock pricing guide, but it also includes assignments as well as "coaches" to help negotiate and determine what your images are worth.
If the image you make are marketable elsewhere (other stock sales, articles, fine-art prints), and you feel you might want to market them further, I don't think you would want to give them all rights.
But if you know you won't want to use the images yourself, determine what your time is worth (including any post processing and materials) and add some "added value" that takes into consideration what the images are worth to the client.
You may want to check out this [url=http://www.nppa.org/professional_development/business_practices/cdb/cdbcalc.cfm[Cost of Doing Business Calculator[/url] to help determine what your time is worth.
A common "formula" that some assigment guys I know use is to charge a "creative fee", which is your fee just for doing the shoot, and then a licensing fee for the images used.
I have to agree with Rod concerning fotoquote, there is just simply a wealth of information that is so helpful for photographers just getting started. I've mentioned it over and over in this forum but it is just so valuable to invest some money and time in a comprehensive pricing software or guide like fotoquote along with membership in a photographer's organization like Editorial Photographers, PPA. ASMP, etc, where you can learn from your peers and veteran photographers, find sample forms for things like assignment contracts, etc.
Most of the questions I see posted here concerning pricing or assigned work you can easily read up on or learn about in a quality guide like fotoquote. It's worth the investment! For the first couple of assignment and commercial jobs I did things like fotoquote and EP were invaluable. I was able to come off in a very professional manner even if I was a greenhorn at the time .
For assignment work I have come up with three different price ranges based on whether the client is a local, regional or national business. I charge a daily creative fee + expenses. The creative fees are based on a combination of what I have calculated is my daily cost of doing business and what the standard market price range is for regional or national companies. I always write up an estimate for a client to look over that is very detailed in what the estimated expenses might be so that there's no hidden suprises down the road. Fotobiz has excellent assignment estimate forms by the way. I normally try to add about 10% over what the actual expenses are in order to help pay miscellaneous costs such as the time it takes to put all the files or film together for shipping, etc. I would never, ever do a job without having a contract signed beforehand. I will send out what I call a draft assignment contract and let the client know if there's things they want to change or modify to let me know. It is very normal to end up making a few changes before the final contract is signed.
With smaller local companies I have not had much luck with licensing according to usage, most seem to be used to having unlimited usage. I think in this case if the client is a local company you could look at granting them unlimited usage but insist on retaining copyright, having them sign property/model release forms and keep the right to market the images yourself. One thing you can do is offer to write it up in the contract that you will not market any of the images produced to any competing outlets or companies. What may complicate things is that you're shooting on their private waters. Does this mean they have an exclusive license to outfit the waters or do they actually own the property surrounding the water?
If they balk at allowing you to retain copyright you could perhaps come up with two different price ranges to compare, one for a complete buyout and one for simply unlimited usage (though I would draw the line and simply not bid the job if it meant not having copyright). I would explain that the reason you need to market the images yourself and retain copyright is that, even though he may consider it a work-for-hire situation he does not hire you in a traditional sense with benefits such as a pension, healhcare insurance, etc., and that is essentially what your revenue from stock sales helps cover. Of course, if you're doing the photography work just as a sideline and have another full time source of income then perhaps he won't see the logic in it He should understand however that simply as a creative person you have a right to retain copyright over the images since it is your creative abilities he is hiring.
If you are granting unlimited usage one thing I always do is have a set number of images they can use for the set creative fee. If they want, say, over ten photos after you've shown them the unprocessed photos then I would consider charging a processing fee/photo. That way it keeps you from getting buried in computer work to the point that it ends up not being worth your time. And like everything else have everything explained clearly in the contract they sign.
Anyway, that's just a few things to consider. As always I like to hear other folks input. Good luck, Randy
Discussion
6 repliesIn my opinion you should first decide if you want to do it as work-for-hire on a Time-and-Materials basis (i.e. get paid by the hour and cover your material expenses) or on a rights basis (i.e. you put in whatever amout of work it takes and get paid by the number of images and associated rights they want).
You can set a base rate just to make sure nobody has an incentive to take advantage of the other side.
Guy
here it is... >
Kevin I have to say the the ratio for figuring out the cost for photography can & does vary widely... I find the best way for me is to charge by the hour, plus extra charges for full copyrights ( which can be very high depending on the type of images...)
if they agree to have my logo on the work ofcourse I give a much better deal on the copyrights...
I do have a contract that they must sign & all future prints must be done though one of three labs I use... very important to me because I do not want them getting prints done that are are not of my level of standards...
wish I could give you numbers but that really is a personal thing...
maybe some others that do a bit more of the fish shooting will beable to post some thoughts for you...
best of luck with this Kevin...
oh yeah & please don't under pay yourself... your work is worth it...
The images you produce for this shop will make them money. If a client buys a print, it's for their enjoyment.
Here's another instance when a copy of Fotoquote will pay for itself with the first job. Not only is it a stock pricing guide, but it also includes assignments as well as "coaches" to help negotiate and determine what your images are worth.
If the image you make are marketable elsewhere (other stock sales, articles, fine-art prints), and you feel you might want to market them further, I don't think you would want to give them all rights.
But if you know you won't want to use the images yourself, determine what your time is worth (including any post processing and materials) and add some "added value" that takes into consideration what the images are worth to the client.
You may want to check out this [url=http://www.nppa.org/professional_development/business_practices/cdb/cdbcalc.cfm[Cost of Doing Business Calculator[/url] to help determine what your time is worth.
A common "formula" that some assigment guys I know use is to charge a "creative fee", which is your fee just for doing the shoot, and then a licensing fee for the images used.
I have to agree with Rod concerning fotoquote, there is just simply a wealth of information that is so helpful for photographers just getting started. I've mentioned it over and over in this forum but it is just so valuable to invest some money and time in a comprehensive pricing software or guide like fotoquote along with membership in a photographer's organization like Editorial Photographers, PPA. ASMP, etc, where you can learn from your peers and veteran photographers, find sample forms for things like assignment contracts, etc.
Most of the questions I see posted here concerning pricing or assigned work you can easily read up on or learn about in a quality guide like fotoquote. It's worth the investment! For the first couple of assignment and commercial jobs I did things like fotoquote and EP were invaluable. I was able to come off in a very professional manner even if I was a greenhorn at the time .
For assignment work I have come up with three different price ranges based on whether the client is a local, regional or national business. I charge a daily creative fee + expenses. The creative fees are based on a combination of what I have calculated is my daily cost of doing business and what the standard market price range is for regional or national companies. I always write up an estimate for a client to look over that is very detailed in what the estimated expenses might be so that there's no hidden suprises down the road. Fotobiz has excellent assignment estimate forms by the way. I normally try to add about 10% over what the actual expenses are in order to help pay miscellaneous costs such as the time it takes to put all the files or film together for shipping, etc. I would never, ever do a job without having a contract signed beforehand. I will send out what I call a draft assignment contract and let the client know if there's things they want to change or modify to let me know. It is very normal to end up making a few changes before the final contract is signed.
With smaller local companies I have not had much luck with licensing according to usage, most seem to be used to having unlimited usage. I think in this case if the client is a local company you could look at granting them unlimited usage but insist on retaining copyright, having them sign property/model release forms and keep the right to market the images yourself. One thing you can do is offer to write it up in the contract that you will not market any of the images produced to any competing outlets or companies. What may complicate things is that you're shooting on their private waters. Does this mean they have an exclusive license to outfit the waters or do they actually own the property surrounding the water?
If they balk at allowing you to retain copyright you could perhaps come up with two different price ranges to compare, one for a complete buyout and one for simply unlimited usage (though I would draw the line and simply not bid the job if it meant not having copyright). I would explain that the reason you need to market the images yourself and retain copyright is that, even though he may consider it a work-for-hire situation he does not hire you in a traditional sense with benefits such as a pension, healhcare insurance, etc., and that is essentially what your revenue from stock sales helps cover. Of course, if you're doing the photography work just as a sideline and have another full time source of income then perhaps he won't see the logic in it
If you are granting unlimited usage one thing I always do is have a set number of images they can use for the set creative fee. If they want, say, over ten photos after you've shown them the unprocessed photos then I would consider charging a processing fee/photo. That way it keeps you from getting buried in computer work to the point that it ends up not being worth your time. And like everything else have everything explained clearly in the contract they sign.
Anyway, that's just a few things to consider. As always I like to hear other folks input. Good luck, Randy