Pelican Fly-by + addition

Hi Sandy.

This is a nice image, especially with the entire pelican being in crisp focus. Great details.

Happy New Year!

Very nice, Sandy. A little better eye contact could be gotten if you had snapped this one with the bird coming toward you instead of going away. Also, whenever there is a horizon as you have here it's good to use it to level the shot. This needs a slight CCW rotation.

Thanks Randy, happy new year to you!

Thanks Charlie, I didn't even notice that. One of the things I love about the forum is that it helps one develop a photographer's eye. I'm working on it!!

Very good, Sandy. Great details.
Happy new year!

Thanks Jefferson. Happy New Year to you!

Hello Sandy

Well captured, with a pleasing wing position. they are amazing to watch in flight with their graceful glides just above the surface and then quickly prepare for their head first dive.

Bill

Thanks Bill, I love watching and photographing them. I have some interesting shots of them as they roll over and slap the water back first to stun the fish. We have quite a population in Ft. Desoto Park, St. Petersburg, FL that are a delight to watchers and photographers.

In terms of avian photography I don't profess to more than a pleb but this one looks close to perfection to me. DOF is nothing short of wonderful and I like the horizon complimenting the line of flight. The simplistic out-of-focus BG is sheer Mark Rothco!

David, thanks so much - it's always a joy to escape unscathed!!

I like that it's so sharp from tip to tip. I'm still wondering how you did that at f5.6?

Thanks Charlie, as a newbie I don't have a clue! I usually shoot in Av mode but for this one, I simply put the camera into sports mode and starting firing once I focused on the subject. Hey, maybe it's the wonderful Canon L lens that I used!

Nice, Sandy. As others have mentioned it's cool that it's so crisp. I don't know how you cropped this, but I would like to see a bit more room in front of hte bird. Particularly when they're flying, I like to give them some room to move.

Dennis, I'm still always leaning towards the "fill the bloody frame with your image school," and as I recall I did no framing on this one. At least his beak is not touching the right of the screen and his left wing is not touching the top. That's a big improvement for me!!

Other than the square composition making this a bit too tight in the frame, and the horizon... this is an excellent shot! Great detail shooing on the entire bird. Sharon

Sandy,

What do you mean by "framing? Do you mean copping the image to get the composition you want?

With your camera if the image is uncropped and reduced to 720 pixels on the long side the short side would be only 480 pixels and your image is taller than that. Something had to be cropped to get the dimensions shown here.

I also think that more room in front of the bill would give this image more impact and a bit more eye contact from the pelican would too. I like the fanned out tail and wing position.

Thanks Sharon, I really purposefully filled the frame with the bird. My mission was to show the bird in detail. I am aware of the various rules of leaving room where something is facing or going, etc., but I have never been about following rules in my life. If you look up the word "iconoclast," you will see a photo of me! Picasso didn't follow the rules and he did okay! :)

Thanks Mia, I must have framed (cropped) it then, but accomplished exactly what I wanted to showing the bird filling up the frame. When it comes to eyes, I am a nut. I am always going for eye shots and I have a library full of close up, low DOF shots highlighting the eyes of birds. In this shot, my mission was to get the best side view/detail of the amazing plumage of the bird and at least in regards to being self satisfied with it - mission accomplished! You might have seen my pelican shot that I recently posted where I show half of the bird's face with the mission of focusing on its incredible eyes.

Nice crisp detail. It is too tight in the frame for a pleasing composition. I count 3 additional comments from experienced Avian photographers all expressing the same thought. Guess you can continue to post back and say you achieved what you wanted, but listening to input might, just might, be worthwhile if you are really interested in improving your products. Rules are meant to be broken, but only when it makes sense to do so.

Keith, I do pay close attention to what I am told, and have certainly learned a lot during my short stay here, but alas, I have no way of recovering the crop on this one without going through a canvas adding process - I'll go back to the drawing board on the next.

Great flight shot Sandy!
I see you've already received some great tips for improvement, enough said.
Well done

Thanks Howard, I sure have!

Very nice catch. Dennis' advice about the crop is a good suggestion. If you give him space to "fly into" it will likely improve the shot. Keep posting and the feedback will be invaluable.

Thanks Patrick, I am on a steep learning curve having started just this summer and I have already learned so much here. Little by little, I will start thinking and shooting like a real photographer. I am blown away by the work and credentials of the some of those who take the time to offer suggestions. Sometimes I will be biting and kicking but eventually history shows that things will sink in!

Sandy, you have some nice detail and good wing position. Your response "fill the bloody frame with your image school" is interesting, and although you say it was exactly what you wanted, in terms of composition it simply does not work. I also am curious as to how much this was cropped, which it obviously was. Maybe if you were to post the full-frame image would help me, and others like me who are experienced avian photographers, to better critique how it could be presented.

Bill, unfortunately I did not keep the original image and recently cleaned up my system such that all images that were cropped/etc are cleaned off my HD. I think I have a reasonable feel for composition from my art days and certainly understand it. I know about and often incorporate the rule of thirds and other techniques (arguments to the contrary that I have read from experts with different opinions). Obviously in the eyes of real photographers this image is a failure. If for nothing else but my own pleasure (and I often leave room for things in front of moving images understanding that compositional approach), what I wanted here was a nice side, detailed view of the plumage of this juvenile brown pelican. I don't care where he has been and where he has going. There are no distractions in this image and my eyes immediately fall to those amazing wing feathers which as a person with over 15,000 flying hours as a commercial airline pilot and a person with 12 hours and 40 minutes of free fall time flying my body around the skies as a skydiver, I appreciate. Again, let me make it very clear that I have learned an enormous amount on this site from both the moderators and many of the experts kind enough to offer their guidance. But are the rules so fixed that we must all do the same thing and abide by the same rules or is it moderately acceptable for someone to garner pleasure from a shot which accomplishes the exact mission of the photographer? It's one thing if I was trying to sell this shot as a nice wall hanger (although for me, it would be a great wall hanger), but I simply wanted to capture the beauty of this bird in flight.

Again, please no one misunderstand how much I appreciate your guidance and comments - I do and I have learned from them. I just hate being bound by stiff, unwavering rules all the time. On occasion, I want to take the road less travelled. Is that a bad thing? Perhaps in photography it is.

Interestingly, even though this shot is apparently a technical disaster, it is my second most viewed photo even though it has been up for less than two days. My only shot that has eclipsed it, was one of my shots that was chosen as a shot of the week. Perhaps it's just that some like bad photography to offset seeing a lot of great stuff!

I wonder if this shot taken within a few minutes of the one I posted fulfills the criteria that we are speaking of?

I just hate being bound by stiff, unwavering rules all the time. On occasion, I want to take the road less travelled. Is that a bad thing? Perhaps in photography it is.

Sandy: You are NOT bound by stiff, unwavering rules all the time. You can do whatever makes you happy with your photography. Here's the rub…. You are posting images on a photographic critique forum, seeking input. Then when you get input, you tell the person who gave you the gift of feedback that you got exactly what you wanted and in essence are telling them you are going to ignore their feedback. Let me repeat that…. you have been given the gift of feedback and are arguing with the very people who are giving their time to you to help you learn. If you already know that you got exactly what you wanted, then don't post an image and ask for feedback. If you don't want feedback, then don't post. If you want feedback, then post, receive the feedback, absorb it, toss what you want, keep what you want, but please stop arguing with those who have taken the time (with TONS of experience) to provide you with their thoughts. You replied to my post and said you have no way of recovering the crop. That tells me that you are doing destructive edits on your images. As an expert in digital image processing, I'm going to advise you that is a practice you'll regret. Learn how to edit your images so that ANY edit you make is reversible whether it is tomorrow, the next day or next year. If you had been shooting in the film days, would you think of taking out a pair of scissors and cutting off part of the slide or negative? Throwing that piece in the trash, and then wishing you could go back an piece it together again. My guess is no. My strong advice is learn how to process images without destroying your original digital equivalent of the negative or slide. Your enthusiasm is great. You clearly have a desire to learn. Learning on a forum loaded with superb Avian photographers is a fabulous opportunity. I'm telling you point blank, folks are contacting me with frustration at your style, your constant pushing back on advise that you are being given. Do what you want, but it won't be long before folks give up and move on to someone who has a desire to LISTEN. You can ask around this forum, I'm a pretty easy going guy who provides honest feedback. I'm trying to help as well. You posted yet another image at the bottom of this thread. If you want feedback on that image, then post it in a new thread since the posting guidelines ask for that to be the case (and I've asked that of you on 2 separate occasions). Sorry to come across harsh, but the message that I (and many others) are trying to convey doesn't seem to be getting through any other way.

Keith, before I give you my full answer, and please do understand that I DO appreciate the feedback. I think I am misunderstanding something about the forum. I was under the impression that I was simply posting examples of my work in appropriate forums. I further understood that others come in and offer criticism and advice - a good thing! Are you telling me that all forums on NPN are critique forums and simply just not forums to post your work and perhaps get criticism? If "yes," is there a forum on this site to simply post pictures or is it always considered a critique forum. I think going in and better understanding what is going on here would be helpful. I don't want to frustrate people - I want to learn. I will tell you more that might be of interest to you when I get your answer. Thanks. BTW, I would hope that discussion about suggestions is encouraged and we are simply not expected to always nod our heads in the affirmative with every pearl of wisdom that comes our way. I question things, and I learn that way.

Sandy:

Please read the Photo Posting Guidelines. The link is at the Upper right part of this page in the Green. It says very clearly what the purpose of these galleries is. Specifically, please read number 4. The are called "NPN Photo Critique Galleries". If you're looking for a place to post your pictures and get an atta boy, you need to read the purpose of the galleries you've been posting in more carefully.

Jim, I'm not interested in attaboys unless one feels compelled to give one. I guess I am used to another forum where the critiques are reserved for those who ask for them. I'm not interested in someone telling me about framing when I specifically state my mission and the fact that I am pleased with my result. I don't need to hear all the reasons that I should not be pleased.

BTW, I call myself a newbie, because I have been out of photography for ages, but that is not the whole story. I had my first darkroom when I was a pre-teen. As an adult based in NYC as a pilot, under the GI bill, I attended and graduated the school of Modern Photography's course in professional photography circa late 60s. I specialized in B&W photographs and had an extensive dark room setup. I have been published and I have won photo contests. IOW, I probably understand at least a few of the basic principles and definitely over the years have formed my own opinion as to what art is and what I perceive to be a good photo. I am achieving far less than I hope to achieve, in that digital photography is a whole different world where wizards in PP can actually turn swill into great looking stuff that they did not have the skill to accomplish in the camera. I am trying to get back to the former.

I want to thank you and others for the help. I have learned quite a bit on this forum, but I think I now realize that it is time to move on. I will not be extending my trial membership.

Sandy, you should always keep a copy of your original. I shoot my images in RAW format and save them on an external hard drive. There have been many times I have gone back to the original and reworked it. After reading your most current response to Keith's, I have to say that "pearls of wisdom" for me might be either positive or negative, but BOTH are pearls. And I have always catalogued them and learned from their lessons. I have been photographing for around 47 years and have been posting in this forum for about the last ten years, and at the ripe age of 66 I am still learning, every day. And each time I put up an image, I always expect "critique" or "criticism" (there is a difference). We are all here to give, and get, advice, and what you do with it is up to you.

Bill, thanks, I appreciate it - I definitely need to start doing that! Coming from the world of film, I guess I get a bit overwhelmed when I get home and discover that I have just shot 1700 images rather than a couple of rolls of Tri-ex!

I am achieving far less than I hope to achieve, in that digital photography is a whole different world where wizards in PP can actually turn swill into great looking stuff that they did not have the skill to accomplish in the camera. I am trying to get back to the former.

I think that is a flaw in your approach: nobody "turns swill into great looking stuff" through post processing. Great images always begin that way in the camera under control of knowledgable photographers. Post processing is simply a necessary refinement to the raw image - things like fine tuning the white balance and fitting the range of captured brightness into the limitations of the histogram. A bad image (i.e., swill) can be cloned and composited and brightened and saturated in an attempt to correct for "factory-installed" faults, but they will never end up as "great looking stuff."

If you really want to become a skilled digital photographer, start by relying on what you already learned shooting film. Get it right when you press the shutter release and don't assume you can fix it later in post processing. Don't use extreme ISO settings or excessive cropping as crutches. If you pay attention to basics like focus and framing and keeping there camera steady, but especially to the light and getting the exposure right, then you'll have mastered 90% of (digital) photography.

Sandy:
Where to even begin. You’ve professed in this thread and many other threads that you are a newbie. Well maybe a newbie to the world of digital photography, but based on what you said about your photographic education, not a newbie to photography. Photography basics haven’t changed. Good composition didn’t change because of digital cameras. Good exposure didn’t change because of digital cameras. The use of the right film speed from the film days to using the right ISO didn’t change because of digital cameras. I don’t know what you really know about photography and what you knew at one time, but everything you’ve told us for the past couple of weeks would lead us to believe that you are in the early stages of learning (for example, “I simply put the camera in sports mode and started firing once I focused”… or “as a newbie, I don’t have a clue” or “What do you mean by framing” . When you say all of those things, then get input, then argue about it, it leaves a very confusing message for all of us. Now you profess to be published photographer and have won photo contests. Beats me. I have no idea anymore where you are at on your photographic journey.

From your response “I'm not interested in someone telling me about framing when I specifically state my mission and the fact that I am pleased with my result.” Here are your words that you started this image with: “I love to be around pelicans. They are goofy, friendly and fun. This was a fly-by of a juvenile brown pelican that I recently shot on the Gulf of Mexico.” From that just how would you expect anyone to know what your intent was, or that you didn’t want any help/input on composition and framing.

Your comment about “ turning swill into great looking stuff that they did not have the skill to accomplish in the camera” is simply nonsense. Richard replied to you already on that topic. Do you really think the images posted here on NPN started as swill and became great based on “wizards in PP”. I’m going to assume you were not trying to insult the NPN photographic community with that statement and move on.

It is completely your choice about participation in NPN and the photographic critique galleries in the future. Honest feedback can be tough to take. If you haven’t tried posting on 500px.com, you might be happier there. You’ll get a lot of “Great Shot” comments, but good luck getting any input that can help your photographic learning.

Best of luck to you.

Thanks Keith, I appreciate all of your help during my stay on the forum. I certainly felt like a newbie in that among other things, I struggled initially just figuring all of the buttons on my new DSLR in that in my previous life, things were a bit more simplistic. Also, I was never into action shooting - I always had subject matter that was not moving. I hold a degree in aeronautical engineering and graduated with honors, but I couldn't work a simple calculus problem right now to save my butt. The fact that I was shooting successfully in B&W forty some odd years ago and virtually have not had a "real" camera in my hands for over 20 years, certainly put me behind the curve. I have read numerous books in the few months I have been back, I have practiced to the point that I have probably shot over 10,000 images in 6 months. I am struggling a bit with PP in that other than dodging and burning in a darkroom, layers, masking, et al are foreign to me.

I'm sorry I left the wrong impression, and I am also sorry that I had the wrong impression about the forum.

Again, thanks for all your help and sometimes patience and if I didn't mention it, I love the damn image that started this thread and wouldn't change a bloody thing about it!! I must not play well with others.

Hi Sandy,

If you really are interested in becoming a better photographer, you'd do well to develop a thicker skin regarding critiques. There are some exceptionally talented photographers here who are also extremely generous with their knowledge. If you take the time to think about (as opposed to rebut, disagree with or react to) their comments, you may pick up some new ideas and skills that will help you improve. If, on the other hand, your images are already exactly what you wanted, then maybe you're right to move on and open a gallery somewhere. Personally, I doubt that I've ever made a single perfect image, and I'm grateful to all the people here who've taken the time to help me learn.

I too love to be around pelicans--they're exceptional birds. I like the detail here and the spread wings. I do think it would be a much stronger image if the bird were facing slightly toward the viewer instead of away. Adding some room in front of the bird would not detract from the details you wanted to present, and would IMO result in a more pleasing overall composition and image.