Posted by Martin Hurley on November 26, 2006 at 12:19 AM
Hi,
I'm an Australian photographer who's currently based in Thailand, and I'm in the process of creating a book about photography. Well, actually it's more about how to help photographers make more sales, achieve more success online, basically 'become more effective photographers'...
I know there's a lot more to it than that, so that's why I need your help... :-)
If I use your contribution in this book you will receive some seriously great, ongoing promotion for your website or photography business (will include your URL, email and possibly photo, etc) plus of course it's publicity for you. I plan on pushing this book hard online... it'll be a great opportunity for you to have your say, and help others.
It would be wonderful to have you contribute... even if you're a newbie photographer or seasoned pro...
I won't get in-depth here, instead I'll ask you to drop me a brief email saying you're 'in', or you're keen to contribute. Then I'll email you a few simple questions that you can think about. But if you're enthusiastic to begin writing, one question is 'what seems to be your biggest problem about selling your photography online?'...
It's going to be lots of fun. Look forward to working with you.
And thanks...
Martin Hurley
hurleyboy AT gmail.com
http://hurleypix.com
So, if I have interpreted your post correctly, a number of people here write part of a book each ( which you may or may not use) and you get to collate it and sell it?
We get our name in print and you get the money; right?
Given that there appears to be no fiscal incentive/reward for the writer (only for you) can you quantify just how much publicity previous clients have had from your similar ventures so we can offset this benefit in kind against being paid, or receiving a commission.
Also, and probably most importantly, how do you intent to protect our copyright for works submitted (assuming you don't request us to pass copyright to yourself) - I ask as Thailand is as notorious as China for ignoring copyright.
'what seems to be your biggest problem about selling your photography online?'
That some people assume they can have it for free.
Guy
Posted by Martin Hurley on November 26, 2006 at 9:03 AM
Hi, thanks for the replies.
"So, if I have interpreted your post correctly, a number of people here write part of a book each ( which you may or may not use) and you get to collate it and sell it? We get our name in print and you get the money; right?"
Yes, pretty much. You get your name in print and the publicity and visitors who read about you might potentially go to your website to learn more. I collate the material, create the ideas, market and promote the work, find out the needs of the market, the demand, the wants, create a selling mechanism (website, etc) sales letter, graphics, design, etc etc and then I need to sell it too. So yes, I collate the material...
If I was to sell 5000 copies of this book that's 5000 people that might get to know your photography, visit your website and maybe even purchase your work.
"Given that there appears to be no fiscal incentive/reward for the writer (only for you) can you quantify just how much publicity previous clients have had from your similar ventures so we can offset this benefit in kind against being paid, or receiving a commission."
This is one of my first ventures, so I can't really give out those details. However it's possible that we could make arrangements where you sell this book from your own website, or maybe there is a way where commission can be given to contributors. I'm open to ideas about this.
"Also, and probably most importantly, how do you intent to protect our copyright for works submitted (assuming you don't request us to pass copyright to yourself) - I ask as Thailand is as notorious as China for ignoring copyright."
Good question... I'll get back to you on this. Actually being in Thailand shouldn't make any difference as this book is not intended for the Thai market, rather US, Europe, etc where once it is published is under the same laws of copyright protection for all books. (as far as I can understand the copyright system).
'what seems to be your biggest problem about selling your photography online?'
"That some people assume they can have them for free."
Sorry but - have what for free? Do you mean have photos for free? Or have someone contribute to a book for free? Is publicity free?
I respect both your comments, and appreciate them. Sometimes one has to ask things that may seem wrong to many, or take risks to achieve goals. But what's really important to me is a win win situation. Like I said, I'm open to ideas about how we could both benefit from time spent on this. Further ideas most welcome.
Thanks :-)
Martin
Posted by Guy Tal on November 26, 2006 at 11:27 AM
Is publicity free?
That depends. You have so far not qualified the value of said "publicity": How many copies (not estimates - hard numbers)? Where will the book be sold? Who is your target audience and how do you plan to market to them? What kind of rights are you asking for?
Without some idea of the above, I have nothing to compare against the value of the images/rights you're asking for.
I don't necessarily think you're out to deceive anyone but I do think you're pretty naive if you believe this if/maybe/might scenario will appeal to serious photographers.
I also find it a bit ironic that a book aiming to teach photographers how to sell is asking these same photographers to give away work in exchange for some undetermined value that may or may not exist.
Guy
Posted by Robert Fisher on November 26, 2006 at 11:27 AM
Not to sound too critical but this sounds a bit like one of those late night infomercials with some guy trying to sell a book on some get rich quick scheme where the only one who gets rich is the guy selling the book and all the other schmucks who buy it are out the $50 or whatever the cost is.
And don't forget the writing. An individual's thoughts and ideas are as valuable in writing as in a photo. I share my ideas and experiences on NPN as part of an exchange, for which I get back ideas and experiences of others. Since I was first published in 1971, everyone else has paid me for my writing. Tell me how my sweat over the keyboard is going to make me rich when you take the money and I get bubkus. Can you offer anything that NPN doesn't? Surely you must, if you hope people will play your silly little game.
Posted by Rod Barbee on November 26, 2006 at 1:42 PM
I've seen other "projects" like this where photographers contribute to a book project and are supposed to receive in return lots of publicity. The only one who actually makes any money is the person putting it all together.
If you were really serious about recruiting this community of photographers you'd spend some time getting to know us first instead of making your first post (and registering on the same day) a request for free material from us. To me, this just looks like you're out to get something for nothing.
Everything has a cost, but not neccessarily a fiscal cost, so before I would even consider spending any effort on this I would really like to know what "Benefit in Kind" I am getting out of it. It would need to be quantified.
Now, your intented market sector for the book is 'Photographers who don't sell'.
Well unfortunately I don't sell a lot of photography to these type of photographers - to any commercial photographer actually - as they tend to want to take their own pictures. Also, as I also don't run courses to tell people "How to sell", I am sure you can appreciate that any potential publicity that I would get from this venture is to a market sector that would have little need for what I sell hence these readers would just, potentially, bump up my band-width (hence cost me money) for being advertised in said book.
What you're proposing is nothing new. Happens in every profession, I dare say, in one form or another. Once upon a time, a ranking academic clinician tried to gain credit from a research project I did without doing any of the research design or research in participation with me; the credit was 'requested' simply because the person was my supervisor at the time. I refused to publish the work, I felt so strongly against what the person was trying to do. Nor did I ever trust or respect that person in the same way ever again. Get it? I don't feel very good about someone trying to take advantage of me.
Unfortunately, I've seen this kind of thing too much in photography, thus I don't care to gain any business that way. Guy Tal, my esteemed fellow NPN'er and great photographer, hit it right on when he said the biggest problem in selling photography is that 'some people assume they can have it for free,' or certainly for a lot less than it is worth. And I'll add that a lot of people seem to think that snapping a pic is all there is to photography. Oh, brother! How far is that from the truth! Please review the responses from all the wonderful guys, who are trying to be respectful of you, and tell us what you don't understand.
You want to write and publish a book? Good. Take the risk, personally and financially. Put all the work, the sweat, the research, the worry, the determination, the sleepless nights, the non-stop-no-vacation kind of brute labor into it. Develop the ideas and creativity and experience to know what you're talking about, AND do all the business negotiations and marketing for it, and you'll be home free. We're all busy doing that ourselves, or in my case, trying to, so why should we do that for you, even with whatever publicity reward you think may come our way?
Yeah, rightÉ Well, good luck.
Posted by Walter Rowe on November 27, 2006 at 8:39 PM
Robert Fisher hit the nail on the head. Check Martin's web site. I reads like an infomercial too. I googled his name and found his blog.
That's what it smelled like to me, but then again I've been working with a very dead whale for the last month.
Posted by Martin Hurley on November 29, 2006 at 9:06 AM
Hi all,
Thanks for replying with some great comments. I'll try to explain as best as I can from this perspective. Firstly though let me clarify a few things. It's an electronic book (an ebook - able to be read on computer or printed off), not a 'physical' book, and the only photo I want is a photo of the actual contributor. Sorry I wasn't clear on those points, they're important. :-)
About me - my image folio:
http://hurleypix.com/gallery-HQ.html
(ignore the pricing)
articles i've written, have about another 40 ready to go.
http://ezinearticles.com/?expert=Martin_Hurley
my website although far from perfect is in the top ten percent of websites on the internet (and there's 50 million of them) plus my website most often than not gets page 1/2/3 in Google for a whole bunch of its pages... email me if you want me to show you real time what I mean... Plus people are signing up to my newsletter at a good rate... it's encouraging.
Yes I probably am naive but you see, unless I ask and venture forth this idea, then I probably wouldn't see the other side (your side) to it. I learn from your feedback.
I also understand your skepticism. I agree with the points you make especially about an individual's thoughts and ideas being valuable, and so forth.
What's interesting is that had I met you offline (in the dirt world or 'real world') I would have no doubt started talking to you about the exact same thing I brought up in my post. This is what I do. So sorry that I've come on so strong with my first post. The thing is though, I think we're all pushed for time. We've all got a lot to do. So I needed to come out with my project now and not a few weeks down the track. It's just the 'business side' to photography, and after all this is the 'photo marketing' part of the forum, right?
Tom_W "Now, your intented market sector for the book is 'Photographers who don't sell'."
I would add to this - photographers who sell, but want to sell more, or want to sell stock, etc, phtgrs who want to learn more about marketing their work online, phtgrs who are just starting out, phtgrs who want motivation, people who want to start photography, people who are interested in photography, want to invest in photography, learn more etc etc. I'm sure there's much more...
"I am sure you can appreciate that any potential publicity that I would get from this venture is to a market sector that would have little need for what I sell hence these readers would just, potentially, bump up my band-width (hence cost me money) for being advertised in said book. "
Ok... 'bump up my band-width' does this mean you actually 'don't want' people coming to your website? I'm sure people would love to know what you do, read about how you do it, why you do it, and what motivates you etc. Don't you?
"Catherine Reilly: What you're proposing is nothing new. Happens in every profession, I dare say, in one form or another... Nor did I ever trust or respect that person in the same way ever again. Get it? I don't feel very good about someone trying to take advantage of me...
I think what is needed here is more information. People tend to criticize things they don't understand... it's a fact of life. You seem to think I want to take advantage of you and profit from it. Well... in many ways I do. :-) However you will be taking advantage of me too... and profiting from it... How? Well, from more people learning about you, what you do, how you do it, and maybe even buying your images or becoming a client of yours, signing up to your newsletter, etc etc. It's not one sided, I don't think like that... It's a win win situation. People will look to you as the expert, and your perspective will be greatly valued.
"And I'll add that a lot of people seem to think that snapping a pic is all there is to photography. Oh, brother! How far is that from the truth! Please review the responses from all the wonderful guys, who are trying to be respectful of you, and tell us what you don't understand..."
I couldn't agree more. See my photography folio for what images I've created, to give you an idea of my passion to this field.
"You want to write and publish a book? Good. Take the risk, personally and financially. Put all the work, the sweat, the research, the worry, the determination, the sleepless nights, the non-stop-no-vacation kind of brute labor into it. Develop the ideas and creativity and experience to know what you're talking about, AND do all the business negotiations and marketing for it, and you'll be home free. We're all busy doing that ourselves, or in my case, trying to, so why should we do that for you, even with whatever publicity reward you think may come our way? Yeah, right Well, good luck..."
Actually, it doesn't need to be like this Catherine. It's much easier than this... much easier. And if you want me to help you - really help you here - email me an idea of what project you're doing or want to achieve, and I'll explain a few different ways you can do it without all the stress. :-)
Walter Rowe "Robert Fisher hit the nail on the head. Check Martin's web site. It reads like an infomercial too. I googled his name and found his blog. Looks like he has several money making ideas." Yes I have. That's what I'm good at, and it's a good thing to be good at too. No apologies. :-) My website might be an infomercial if that's how you think... it also happens to have some great photography on it.
Let's be clear here. I'm Ok about making mistakes in order to learn how best to do what I do. What I'm doing might not be perfect, but at least I'm doing it. I can help photographers better market themselves online. If you doubt what I say, just try me out - email me with your site and I'll give you some ideas about how you can improve it. :-)
What I haven't included here is further details about the what, where, how many etc 'benefit in kind' details. I'll get that to you shortly, as this post is way long.
By the way, the bottom line is that I want to help you to 'monetize' your photography in order for you to be able to continue creating photography. I know this might be an unusual approach - I do want to see more photography and creativity in the world... that's what is at the bottom of everything I do. :-)
It's important and good that you responded back. As you can guess, there are lots of schemes like yours floating around, to the frustration and dismay of many. And in the bluntness of the responses you got here, you have perhaps paid unfairly for the sins of others.
There's always room for real help from sincere people. I hope others take a second look at this thread. Ours is an established and successful company managing annual growth in spite of challenges in the photo business, so we won't likely explore your services further. Others looking for a leg up might do so.
This is not a reply to Martin (maybe I'll get back to him later) but to the rest of you great people on NPN. The Idea of an E-book is really quite sound. I did it as a alternative to a printed "coffee table book". My subject was my favorite (and the bestest) little river in the land and the E-book covered it from source to end at the Ottawa River. At the time that I undertook this project Power Point was not so common so I did it in HTML and it opens and reads in your web browser complete with page turners. Glennie and I spent a lot of years on this river photographing and writing. The book, on CD, now sells in craft shops in the villages along the river. No, we're not getting rich. We couldn't live off the procedes but it was easy and fun and we're getting publicity and meeting lots of neat people.
This probably should have been a seperate post. Sorry to sabotage your thead Martin but it seemed relevent.
Bob
Posted by Martin Hurley on December 2, 2006 at 12:46 AM
Hi Robert and all,
No probs. I couldn't help but write when you wrote that. I agree, it's very relevant... in fact, if there was one thing at all I would push and encourage to everyone on this forum is that digital is IT, and digital information products (such as an ebook that doesn't have any stock, extremely high pr0fit margins (in the 95%+ range), no shipping cost for buyer or seller, virtually no competition, no restocking expense for seller if refund is sought, no boxes to pack ever, immediate confirmed delivery to customers, can grow a mailing list with every sale, etc etc...) -- with an ebook all the work is done and then it just sells continually... downloaded (after paid for) while you go and take photos somewhere beautiful. :-)
And everyone here would have their own 'unique' angle or perspective of what they do best and how they do it etc so I think an ebook would be well suited... I'm just really fascinated about the potential of what we can do digitally... whether that's screensavers, ebooks, online 'how to' videos explaining how you do the type of photography you do, etc.
We should talk about this topic more and - any questions? It's probably a real good time to go digital. :-)
Martin
Posted by Walter Rowe on December 2, 2006 at 3:04 PM
Martin - no one has questioned the viability of an e-book. What is in question is why we would contribute to your e-book for free, investing our valuable time, knowledge and expertise, and then let you keep all the profits. Potential business as a return on investment is equivalent to vapor ware. It has no intrinsic value. If I contribute my time, knowledge and expertise to a project, I expect fair compensation. What you are proposing is for you to get all the compensation for the least amount of investment of any of us.
Come up with a more fair proposal and more people might be interested.
Posted by Martin Hurley on December 4, 2006 at 9:11 AM
Ok...
I understand my approach may have all been wrong. (I'm sorry, if that helps).
Nevertheless if I can continue with some ideas here as to how best to help publicize you (and your work) and 'monetize' your photography... I think the ebook idea needs more work. I can't say for sure how many I will sell or not sell. It's an unknown factor. I also don't know how best to go about the process... either share the profits equally or pay photographers for their contributions. Let me think further on that...
In the meanwhile all your feedback and responses etc have brought me some interesting ideas. Here's a ballpark of what we could 'potentially' do. Firstly we could create not an ebook exactly but more a special report or mini report, where say 10 photographers contribute their perspective on photography (what they do well in their own unique field) and what we do with this is make this mini report available free for all contributors to offer at their websites or wherever they want to offer it (as a bonus with a photo sale etc).
It's not for sale, it's a gift for those people who sign up for your newsletter at your website etc. (In exchange for their email). It's a promotional report where people can learn about different aspects of photography and go visit each contributors website, sign up for newsletter, etc etc. To be clear none of us profit financially from it (including me) however the copyright would be owned by me.
The next thing would be to create an article where I interview you. This is very win-win because although the resource box at the end of the article will point to my site and copyright will belong to me (I'll be doing all the promotion etc) the whole article will basically be about you, why you do what you do, and how etc. And that includes links to your website/s. So it would promote both of us. This is not an article for sale. This is an article for distribution online by article submission services. The big benefit to you is publicity.
This will get your name out there and seen and give you increased publicity for your new work, exhibition, book, website, whatever is important for you, etc etc. To be specific I will submit this article to announcement sites, my own personal list of ezine editors and get this article in front of more than 3000 editors and website owners who could potentially run it.
Of course if we do any of the above I'll give you a chance to read it beforehand and OK it with me before we go ahead. I'll need your blessings first. :-)
I know you still might be skeptical but all I can say is give me a try on this one and like I said previously if anyone wants ideas on how to improve their photo websites please let me know.
You pay the contributors for their work, and they refund a portion of the money to you each time your ebook results in a sale for them. That way you make money if your idea works while sharing the burden with your contributors.
Am I missing something here, or are you only considering ways pass the burden of risk off to contributors while not to paying them?
Yes, Walter and Hank. Thank you!
Martin: Please DO think about how to pay photographers for their articles and photos that make up your book (e-book, whatever) and pay royalties to contributors on sales of said book, too. Then you can reap whatever $$ you can as editor/publisher of said book.
On a different note, please don't think I don't understand what you're doing. I was too mad when I wrote my first reply. But I assure you, I did not crawl out my crib yesterday. You ARE very good at what you do: words and words and words that just reiterate the same scheme with yet more twists. If I wanted help, it certainly would not be from you. No, there are much better local resources available. Sorry (if that helps).
Our motif for joining the NPN community is to learn and share. Many of us wanted to improve as nature photographers. And we have many dedicated members who unselfishly give of their time and knowledge which is of great benefit to all.
Your motif for joining NPN is, as far as I am concerned, inappropriate. Your site says you are a photographer. Come and post some of your work. Let us comment on it. This is a place for sharing; not for using us for a quick get rich scheme.
Will
Edmonton, Alberta
Canada
Posted by Martin Hurley on January 10, 2007 at 2:12 AM
Will, if you think that, so be it. Ah, this is a photo marketing forum, isn't it? It seems that a lot of you photographers are anti-marketing. Nothing wrong with making money from photography... you all should be looking at ways to increase your income...
Catherine... If I'm very good at what i do (thanks), then why would you not want to get help from me?
Anyway my first ebook is finished and will be on sale soon. I wrote it myself... if I had sat around and waited for photographers to contribute, it would never have been done...
But the next one, well who knows, maybe I'll find photographers that want to contribute... and work on a way to pay contributors too...
No, I don't want to post my photography. Posting work bores me. You'll all have fun finding all your reasons why my beautiful work is not perfect enough for you. It wears me down. I just want to help photographers market themselves better online...
Posted by Walter Rowe on January 10, 2007 at 2:23 PM
Martin Hurley wrote:
No, I don't want to post my photography. Posting work bores me. You'll all have fun finding all your reasons why my beautiful work is not perfect enough for you. It wears me down. I just want to help photographers market themselves better online.
If your work is so beautiful, you should be able to illustrate your book without us. If you are as confident and good at what you do as you say, then you should be able to sell your book at a fair price that allows you to compensate every contributer at fair market rates.
Discussion
22 repliesI'm an Australian photographer who's currently based in Thailand, and I'm in the process of creating a book about photography. Well, actually it's more about how to help photographers make more sales, achieve more success online, basically 'become more effective photographers'...
I know there's a lot more to it than that, so that's why I need your help... :-)
If I use your contribution in this book you will receive some seriously great, ongoing promotion for your website or photography business (will include your URL, email and possibly photo, etc) plus of course it's publicity for you. I plan on pushing this book hard online... it'll be a great opportunity for you to have your say, and help others.
It would be wonderful to have you contribute... even if you're a newbie photographer or seasoned pro...
I won't get in-depth here, instead I'll ask you to drop me a brief email saying you're 'in', or you're keen to contribute. Then I'll email you a few simple questions that you can think about. But if you're enthusiastic to begin writing, one question is 'what seems to be your biggest problem about selling your photography online?'...
It's going to be lots of fun. Look forward to working with you.
And thanks...
Martin Hurley
hurleyboy AT gmail.com
http://hurleypix.com
So, if I have interpreted your post correctly, a number of people here write part of a book each ( which you may or may not use) and you get to collate it and sell it?
We get our name in print and you get the money; right?
Given that there appears to be no fiscal incentive/reward for the writer (only for you) can you quantify just how much publicity previous clients have had from your similar ventures so we can offset this benefit in kind against being paid, or receiving a commission.
Also, and probably most importantly, how do you intent to protect our copyright for works submitted (assuming you don't request us to pass copyright to yourself) - I ask as Thailand is as notorious as China for ignoring copyright.
That some people assume they can have it for free.
Guy
"So, if I have interpreted your post correctly, a number of people here write part of a book each ( which you may or may not use) and you get to collate it and sell it? We get our name in print and you get the money; right?"
Yes, pretty much. You get your name in print and the publicity and visitors who read about you might potentially go to your website to learn more. I collate the material, create the ideas, market and promote the work, find out the needs of the market, the demand, the wants, create a selling mechanism (website, etc) sales letter, graphics, design, etc etc and then I need to sell it too. So yes, I collate the material...
If I was to sell 5000 copies of this book that's 5000 people that might get to know your photography, visit your website and maybe even purchase your work.
"Given that there appears to be no fiscal incentive/reward for the writer (only for you) can you quantify just how much publicity previous clients have had from your similar ventures so we can offset this benefit in kind against being paid, or receiving a commission."
This is one of my first ventures, so I can't really give out those details. However it's possible that we could make arrangements where you sell this book from your own website, or maybe there is a way where commission can be given to contributors. I'm open to ideas about this.
"Also, and probably most importantly, how do you intent to protect our copyright for works submitted (assuming you don't request us to pass copyright to yourself) - I ask as Thailand is as notorious as China for ignoring copyright."
Good question... I'll get back to you on this. Actually being in Thailand shouldn't make any difference as this book is not intended for the Thai market, rather US, Europe, etc where once it is published is under the same laws of copyright protection for all books. (as far as I can understand the copyright system).
'what seems to be your biggest problem about selling your photography online?'
"That some people assume they can have them for free."
Sorry but - have what for free? Do you mean have photos for free? Or have someone contribute to a book for free? Is publicity free?
I respect both your comments, and appreciate them. Sometimes one has to ask things that may seem wrong to many, or take risks to achieve goals. But what's really important to me is a win win situation. Like I said, I'm open to ideas about how we could both benefit from time spent on this. Further ideas most welcome.
Thanks :-)
Martin
That depends. You have so far not qualified the value of said "publicity": How many copies (not estimates - hard numbers)? Where will the book be sold? Who is your target audience and how do you plan to market to them? What kind of rights are you asking for?
Without some idea of the above, I have nothing to compare against the value of the images/rights you're asking for.
I don't necessarily think you're out to deceive anyone but I do think you're pretty naive if you believe this if/maybe/might scenario will appeal to serious photographers.
I also find it a bit ironic that a book aiming to teach photographers how to sell is asking these same photographers to give away work in exchange for some undetermined value that may or may not exist.
Guy
If you were really serious about recruiting this community of photographers you'd spend some time getting to know us first instead of making your first post (and registering on the same day) a request for free material from us. To me, this just looks like you're out to get something for nothing.
Thanks for replying.
Everything has a cost, but not neccessarily a fiscal cost, so before I would even consider spending any effort on this I would really like to know what "Benefit in Kind" I am getting out of it. It would need to be quantified.
Now, your intented market sector for the book is 'Photographers who don't sell'.
Well unfortunately I don't sell a lot of photography to these type of photographers - to any commercial photographer actually - as they tend to want to take their own pictures. Also, as I also don't run courses to tell people "How to sell", I am sure you can appreciate that any potential publicity that I would get from this venture is to a market sector that would have little need for what I sell hence these readers would just, potentially, bump up my band-width (hence cost me money) for being advertised in said book.
Sorry
What you're proposing is nothing new. Happens in every profession, I dare say, in one form or another. Once upon a time, a ranking academic clinician tried to gain credit from a research project I did without doing any of the research design or research in participation with me; the credit was 'requested' simply because the person was my supervisor at the time. I refused to publish the work, I felt so strongly against what the person was trying to do. Nor did I ever trust or respect that person in the same way ever again. Get it? I don't feel very good about someone trying to take advantage of me.
Unfortunately, I've seen this kind of thing too much in photography, thus I don't care to gain any business that way. Guy Tal, my esteemed fellow NPN'er and great photographer, hit it right on when he said the biggest problem in selling photography is that 'some people assume they can have it for free,' or certainly for a lot less than it is worth. And I'll add that a lot of people seem to think that snapping a pic is all there is to photography. Oh, brother! How far is that from the truth! Please review the responses from all the wonderful guys, who are trying to be respectful of you, and tell us what you don't understand.
You want to write and publish a book? Good. Take the risk, personally and financially. Put all the work, the sweat, the research, the worry, the determination, the sleepless nights, the non-stop-no-vacation kind of brute labor into it. Develop the ideas and creativity and experience to know what you're talking about, AND do all the business negotiations and marketing for it, and you'll be home free. We're all busy doing that ourselves, or in my case, trying to, so why should we do that for you, even with whatever publicity reward you think may come our way?
Yeah, rightÉ Well, good luck.
http://www.blogger.com/profile/10602095
Looks like he has several money making ideas.
Thanks for replying with some great comments. I'll try to explain as best as I can from this perspective. Firstly though let me clarify a few things. It's an electronic book (an ebook - able to be read on computer or printed off), not a 'physical' book, and the only photo I want is a photo of the actual contributor. Sorry I wasn't clear on those points, they're important. :-)
About me - my image folio:
http://hurleypix.com/gallery-HQ.html
(ignore the pricing)
articles i've written, have about another 40 ready to go.
http://ezinearticles.com/?expert=Martin_Hurley
my website although far from perfect is in the top ten percent of websites on the internet (and there's 50 million of them) plus my website most often than not gets page 1/2/3 in Google for a whole bunch of its pages... email me if you want me to show you real time what I mean... Plus people are signing up to my newsletter at a good rate... it's encouraging.
Yes I probably am naive but you see, unless I ask and venture forth this idea, then I probably wouldn't see the other side (your side) to it. I learn from your feedback.
I also understand your skepticism. I agree with the points you make especially about an individual's thoughts and ideas being valuable, and so forth.
What's interesting is that had I met you offline (in the dirt world or 'real world') I would have no doubt started talking to you about the exact same thing I brought up in my post. This is what I do. So sorry that I've come on so strong with my first post. The thing is though, I think we're all pushed for time. We've all got a lot to do. So I needed to come out with my project now and not a few weeks down the track. It's just the 'business side' to photography, and after all this is the 'photo marketing' part of the forum, right?
Tom_W "Now, your intented market sector for the book is 'Photographers who don't sell'."
I would add to this - photographers who sell, but want to sell more, or want to sell stock, etc, phtgrs who want to learn more about marketing their work online, phtgrs who are just starting out, phtgrs who want motivation, people who want to start photography, people who are interested in photography, want to invest in photography, learn more etc etc. I'm sure there's much more...
"I am sure you can appreciate that any potential publicity that I would get from this venture is to a market sector that would have little need for what I sell hence these readers would just, potentially, bump up my band-width (hence cost me money) for being advertised in said book. "
Ok... 'bump up my band-width' does this mean you actually 'don't want' people coming to your website? I'm sure people would love to know what you do, read about how you do it, why you do it, and what motivates you etc. Don't you?
"Catherine Reilly: What you're proposing is nothing new. Happens in every profession, I dare say, in one form or another... Nor did I ever trust or respect that person in the same way ever again. Get it? I don't feel very good about someone trying to take advantage of me...
I think what is needed here is more information. People tend to criticize things they don't understand... it's a fact of life. You seem to think I want to take advantage of you and profit from it. Well... in many ways I do. :-) However you will be taking advantage of me too... and profiting from it... How? Well, from more people learning about you, what you do, how you do it, and maybe even buying your images or becoming a client of yours, signing up to your newsletter, etc etc. It's not one sided, I don't think like that... It's a win win situation. People will look to you as the expert, and your perspective will be greatly valued.
"And I'll add that a lot of people seem to think that snapping a pic is all there is to photography. Oh, brother! How far is that from the truth! Please review the responses from all the wonderful guys, who are trying to be respectful of you, and tell us what you don't understand..."
I couldn't agree more. See my photography folio for what images I've created, to give you an idea of my passion to this field.
"You want to write and publish a book? Good. Take the risk, personally and financially. Put all the work, the sweat, the research, the worry, the determination, the sleepless nights, the non-stop-no-vacation kind of brute labor into it. Develop the ideas and creativity and experience to know what you're talking about, AND do all the business negotiations and marketing for it, and you'll be home free. We're all busy doing that ourselves, or in my case, trying to, so why should we do that for you, even with whatever publicity reward you think may come our way? Yeah, right Well, good luck..."
Actually, it doesn't need to be like this Catherine. It's much easier than this... much easier. And if you want me to help you - really help you here - email me an idea of what project you're doing or want to achieve, and I'll explain a few different ways you can do it without all the stress. :-)
Walter Rowe "Robert Fisher hit the nail on the head. Check Martin's web site. It reads like an infomercial too. I googled his name and found his blog. Looks like he has several money making ideas." Yes I have. That's what I'm good at, and it's a good thing to be good at too. No apologies. :-) My website might be an infomercial if that's how you think... it also happens to have some great photography on it.
Let's be clear here. I'm Ok about making mistakes in order to learn how best to do what I do. What I'm doing might not be perfect, but at least I'm doing it. I can help photographers better market themselves online. If you doubt what I say, just try me out - email me with your site and I'll give you some ideas about how you can improve it. :-)
What I haven't included here is further details about the what, where, how many etc 'benefit in kind' details. I'll get that to you shortly, as this post is way long.
By the way, the bottom line is that I want to help you to 'monetize' your photography in order for you to be able to continue creating photography. I know this might be an unusual approach - I do want to see more photography and creativity in the world... that's what is at the bottom of everything I do. :-)
Thanks for reading.
Martin
It's important and good that you responded back. As you can guess, there are lots of schemes like yours floating around, to the frustration and dismay of many. And in the bluntness of the responses you got here, you have perhaps paid unfairly for the sins of others.
There's always room for real help from sincere people. I hope others take a second look at this thread. Ours is an established and successful company managing annual growth in spite of challenges in the photo business, so we won't likely explore your services further. Others looking for a leg up might do so.
This probably should have been a seperate post. Sorry to sabotage your thead Martin but it seemed relevent.
Bob
No probs. I couldn't help but write when you wrote that. I agree, it's very relevant... in fact, if there was one thing at all I would push and encourage to everyone on this forum is that digital is IT, and digital information products (such as an ebook that doesn't have any stock, extremely high pr0fit margins (in the 95%+ range), no shipping cost for buyer or seller, virtually no competition, no restocking expense for seller if refund is sought, no boxes to pack ever, immediate confirmed delivery to customers, can grow a mailing list with every sale, etc etc...) -- with an ebook all the work is done and then it just sells continually... downloaded (after paid for) while you go and take photos somewhere beautiful. :-)
And everyone here would have their own 'unique' angle or perspective of what they do best and how they do it etc so I think an ebook would be well suited... I'm just really fascinated about the potential of what we can do digitally... whether that's screensavers, ebooks, online 'how to' videos explaining how you do the type of photography you do, etc.
We should talk about this topic more and - any questions? It's probably a real good time to go digital. :-)
Martin
Come up with a more fair proposal and more people might be interested.
I understand my approach may have all been wrong. (I'm sorry, if that helps).
Nevertheless if I can continue with some ideas here as to how best to help publicize you (and your work) and 'monetize' your photography... I think the ebook idea needs more work. I can't say for sure how many I will sell or not sell. It's an unknown factor. I also don't know how best to go about the process... either share the profits equally or pay photographers for their contributions. Let me think further on that...
In the meanwhile all your feedback and responses etc have brought me some interesting ideas. Here's a ballpark of what we could 'potentially' do. Firstly we could create not an ebook exactly but more a special report or mini report, where say 10 photographers contribute their perspective on photography (what they do well in their own unique field) and what we do with this is make this mini report available free for all contributors to offer at their websites or wherever they want to offer it (as a bonus with a photo sale etc).
It's not for sale, it's a gift for those people who sign up for your newsletter at your website etc. (In exchange for their email). It's a promotional report where people can learn about different aspects of photography and go visit each contributors website, sign up for newsletter, etc etc. To be clear none of us profit financially from it (including me) however the copyright would be owned by me.
The next thing would be to create an article where I interview you. This is very win-win because although the resource box at the end of the article will point to my site and copyright will belong to me (I'll be doing all the promotion etc) the whole article will basically be about you, why you do what you do, and how etc. And that includes links to your website/s. So it would promote both of us. This is not an article for sale. This is an article for distribution online by article submission services. The big benefit to you is publicity.
This will get your name out there and seen and give you increased publicity for your new work, exhibition, book, website, whatever is important for you, etc etc. To be specific I will submit this article to announcement sites, my own personal list of ezine editors and get this article in front of more than 3000 editors and website owners who could potentially run it.
Of course if we do any of the above I'll give you a chance to read it beforehand and OK it with me before we go ahead. I'll need your blessings first. :-)
I know you still might be skeptical but all I can say is give me a try on this one and like I said previously if anyone wants ideas on how to improve their photo websites please let me know.
Martin
http://hurleypix.com
How about this, which is just as fair:
You pay the contributors for their work, and they refund a portion of the money to you each time your ebook results in a sale for them. That way you make money if your idea works while sharing the burden with your contributors.
Am I missing something here, or are you only considering ways pass the burden of risk off to contributors while not to paying them?
Martin: Please DO think about how to pay photographers for their articles and photos that make up your book (e-book, whatever) and pay royalties to contributors on sales of said book, too. Then you can reap whatever $$ you can as editor/publisher of said book.
On a different note, please don't think I don't understand what you're doing. I was too mad when I wrote my first reply. But I assure you, I did not crawl out my crib yesterday. You ARE very good at what you do: words and words and words that just reiterate the same scheme with yet more twists. If I wanted help, it certainly would not be from you. No, there are much better local resources available. Sorry (if that helps).
Your motif for joining NPN is, as far as I am concerned, inappropriate. Your site says you are a photographer. Come and post some of your work. Let us comment on it. This is a place for sharing; not for using us for a quick get rich scheme.
Will
Edmonton, Alberta
Canada
Catherine... If I'm very good at what i do (thanks), then why would you not want to get help from me?
Anyway my first ebook is finished and will be on sale soon. I wrote it myself... if I had sat around and waited for photographers to contribute, it would never have been done...
But the next one, well who knows, maybe I'll find photographers that want to contribute... and work on a way to pay contributors too...
No, I don't want to post my photography. Posting work bores me. You'll all have fun finding all your reasons why my beautiful work is not perfect enough for you. It wears me down. I just want to help photographers market themselves better online...