Photographer's Rights

I had an incident happen to me at Corona Del Mar yesterday and I'm very upset about it. The story is on my blog. I'm not sure if this fits under general discussion or hot topics. Thank you.

In the Field

Richard,

I've been to Corona Del Mar just twice in my life, back in 1999, on my one trip so far to California. Even got some keepers there. I wasn't approached about a permit, but my bird photography ended both times when jerks with dogs walked past the "dogs must be leashed sign" and unleashed their dogs to harrass every (previously) resting bird on the beach. I've still got photos of the one guy. Wonder if they sell permits that allow you to violate the dog laws?

You think that was bad? LOL! Try taking photos of trains. I was once threatened by a machine gun toting security guard! Another time I was actually in a public street taking photos of a diesel switcher working inside a rubber plant and a security guard came out and told me I couldn't take photos or he'd call the police. I pulled out my cell phone and called the police. When they came I told them I thought the guy was impersonating an officer and was being suspicious. Another time a low level employee told me I couldn't take photos of the "L" train in Chicago, so I again whipped out my cell phone and asked them to call their supervisor for me. I was immediately left alone. Another time I was taking photos of a slot train in Omaha along a public road and three dark blue SUVs pulled up. Air Force MPs with M16s jumped out and started asking me questions. I had been taking the photos through the sun roof of my car using my 80-400mm VR lens. They said someone had called in and said I had a missile launcher. LOL!!!! I was under the landing approach for Offutt Airbase, about three miles to the southeast. At least they were polite. Another time I was taking photos from the side of a road of a UP derailment and railroad police told me I had to give them my film. I refused. When one of them tried to grab my camera, I pointed to my teenage son sitting in my pickup truck about 100 yards away. I told him he had orders to load my .30-06 deer rifle and shoot anyone who was trying to rob me, and by grabbing at me like that they were risking their lives. He was a decent shot. They immediately backed off! They left me alone when I pulled out my cell phone to call my brother, an attorney, who I told them would call their legal department in Omaha.

Generally, when any security guard type or other non-law enforcement type tries to hassle me, I first try to put them at ease. If that doesn't work, I take out my cell phone and let them know I'm calling the sherrif. I've had good luck with sherrifs and deputies in still other similar situations. People who are blowing smoke usually know it and slink off if you turn the tables on them. Fortunately, where I live problems are very, very rare. For one thing, there's generally no people around when I take photos. For another thing, not many will venture out in the cold just to hassle me. Last February I was riding all around on the Chicago L taking photos for three solid hours. I was never even approached. It was 3 above zero, a temperature they consider "cold" in Chicago. LOL!!!! All the security guard types stayed inside and left me completely alone!


Kent in SD

Yeah unfortunately these types of things seem to happen very often these days.

Amongst the wierder things I know have happened was one guy taking photographs was stopped and evicted by armed policemen, due to "heightened security measures in a post 9/11 world".

The poor chap was trying to take a photograph of a water fountain

Get a copy of the regs and study them. If the enforcers are out of line, carry a copy and stand up for yourself. If the regs are out of line, take it up with the regulatory body or fall in line. Not much in between that I can see. It's much like the process for photographing in state and and national parks.

As far as I know, a homewoners association in CA has no jurisdiction on lands identified as 'public', even if such lands are adjacent to their holdings unless (and this is the kicker) there is a local government ordinance in force that supports their regulations.

Unfortunately, access rights to public beaches in CA has been an issue for a very long time, and such issues have resulted in some protracted fights in the courts. It may a good idea to write The California Coastal Commission regarding your issue.

I think Hank's suggestion is excellent.

We do have a right to access public lands and to use them according to the regulations in place. If we trespass private property to get there, then that is a different story.

-PB

Interesting story and subject,
I would think that a genuine concern for the ecco system would be expressed in a more understanding way to get a posetive response from the public so it's obvious she was trying to bully you. I guess if you were comissioned by one of the landholders for a image then it would be hunky dory.
Locally we have the dilemma of the lake being owned by a utility company(electric) who established a development company to sell the land and houses at a prime price. The area used to have a reputation from people camping out and partying all night and leaving a mess. The partying was banned and most of the area around the lake is designated as "no parking at anytime". They even have ditches dug so there isn't enough of a shoulder to park on. I admit I find ways to sneak in and even just risk getting the parking ticket but who I feel bad for is people who don't own boats who make want to take their kids fishing. There are very few public access spots on such a big lake.

I don't see anything inappropriate in what the town and its employee did. Sorry.

The only thing more shocking is that somone here at NPN would think that it wasn't inappropriate to be ticketed $100 for taking a picture on a public beach in a State Park!

There is a reason it is called public land. The residents in the fancy homes along the beach don't own or control it, nor does the city of CDM - it is a California State Park and the California State Park system has very clear regulations regarding photography, you can find it on their website. A still photographer, not using models, sets etc doesn't need a permit. The same is true at Bodie and other California State Parks as well.

it wasn't inappropriate to

Hey Ron

that's a double negative - you know better.

Merry Xmas, brother.

Cheers

Carl

Hi Carl,

No it wasn't not! lol

Yeah, I guess that is a pretty bad sentence!

Merry Christmas to you and everyone else!

he wasn't ticketed, unless I read the story wrong

Crazy Kent, I want to hang out with you.

True I wasn't ticketed, I was only threatened that I'd be shooting at my own risk for being cited. The lady wasn't a police officer that's why I didn't receive one. Cops have more important things to do with their time. Plus I did pay for my permit. The IRS received my check in April...

No, he didn’t actually get fined. She claimed he would if he kept taking pictures. A $100 "penalty" for taking a photo on a public beach!

"She claimed he would if he kept taking pictures."

I only know what I read in the blog.

Richard,

Since the City of Newport Beach has some sort of ordinance on the books regarding photography at CDM, I heartily suggest that you contact the California Coastal Commision and present copies of the ordinance along with supporting documentation from other photographers who have been threatened with, or received citations.

You might also check to see if the City has a dedicated easment to parts of the beach. Such dedicated easments usually have specific language the spells out the rights of both parties involved.

Also, be very careful how you represent this issue in your blog and here at NPN. If litigation in any form results from your issue, remember; whatever you say, can and will be used against you.

I wish you luck on this. Hopefully, your efforts will bring positive change and benefit all who use this public land.

-PB

Great Lakes beach front property owners in Michigan thought they owned the beach all the way down to the water's edge and would repeatedly tell those who dared walk on their hallowed sand to leave because they were on private property...until someone took it to court. A judge ruled not long ago that everyone has a right to walk (although not camp) on the beach, up to the highest water level mark. That would be about where the dune grass starts growing, which leaves plenty of room for photographers AND walkers.

Hang on a sec. How does this go from 'some lady on a beach approached me' in one paragraph to the lady being a 'city employee' in the next paragraph.

What this looks like to me is a very one-sided rant with some fairly large holes in the story. I have little doubt that these things do happen but this one just smells off to me.

We have many similar situations here. One example is on the Lake Erie shore in a small town called Fort Erie is a lighthouse called Point Abino. It's architecture is very distinctive and its considered a good photo to get. The lighthouse itself is on public land but the only way to access the light via land (you can also access by water) is over private property. In order to photograph the lighthouse you have to sign in with at the front gate of the cottage community and must sign a release indicating that you are not a professional photographer and that the photos will not be used for commercial purposes. The exception to this is that on a few days during the summer, the town runs tours of the light as a fund raising exercise to help pay for restoration and upkeep of the light. On those days, no release or separate permission is required. Guess when I got my photos of the light?

Thanks Preston, I will be writing a letter to the Commission after Christmas. I'll gather some examples that I can find in the meantime. I will consult with some of you privately if I have questions.

Robert: the lady had a badge and shirt that identified herself as an employee of City Hall. My mother can vouch for that as well. This has been a legal issue up and down the California Coast for years.

Interestingly enough. The California Coastal Commission's website currently has posted the 2006 Coastal Photography Contest winners. May I see your permit, sir?

http://www.coastal.ca.gov/

Robert--

That would be an instance when I would likely paddle in with my duckboat. I find accessing places by boat can often avoid all kinds of hassles. Especially if you stay ni the boat--few people will get wet to hassle you. There is a small rail yard I wanted photos of, that had the standard "No Tresspassing" signs all over. There was also a creek that went through it that empited into a nearby river. The creek was easily deep enough to float small boats. So, I put my boat into the river and paddled up into the creek. I was taking all the photos I wanted from my boat. Sure enough, someone in a white SUV pulled up and told me I was on private property and I had to go or he'd call the sherriff. I told him that the creek was considered a "navigable waterway" under state law, and as long as I stayed in my boat, I could hunt ducks, fish, or take photos to my heart's content. I told him to go ahead and call the sherriff and ask him. I told him any Fishygame officer would be even more familiar with the state law. So, he did call the sherriff right there in front of me. I heard him say, "He can? It's not considered tresspassing even though we put up signs?" He hung up and said, "Well, ok. But you better stay in the boat." At that point, I knew I had won another one. I've discovered a boat can get you into places you'd never think possible.


Kent in SD

Just because you can see and photograph something from public land, that does not automatically give you the right to shoot and sell images of it. Here is a link to a somewhat old case but it's still interesting. http://courses.cs.vt.edu/~cs3604/lib/Copyrights.Patents/Buchholz.poster.HTML

It sounds like in Corona Del Mar they're really not as concerned with ecosystem as they are with making some money and cutting down on the number of people with big cameras and lenses.

I feel your pain. Just try to photograph a sunset near a major dam that the STUPID core of enginers controls. Our local parks close at 5pm and they will tow your car at 5;01. It just goes on and on.

Ah, yes, the Corpse of Enginneers. Followed closely by the Bureau of Rectumation and the Department of Redundancy Department.

Andy, I have heard that in some places on the CA coast, the powerful few who live atop the cliffs simply don't want people down on the beach spoiling their viewshed.

As Robert says: "It goes on, and on"

-PB

After soliciting all of your advice, I spoke to someone at the commission after Christmas and wrote a letter with case-supporting documentation. I'll reveal the result when I hear from them. Thanks.