Posted by Robert Fisher on August 23, 2008 at 8:56 AM
Did a search and didn't find anything so am posting this for feedback. If it's not in the right place, mods please feel free to move it.
I'm looking at buying a canoe so that I can get out on the water and add some different perspectives into my photography. I've done a fair bit of paddling in the past but not a lot in recent years. I haven't owned a canoe in probably 20 years. They're a lot different now in terms of materials they're made from and there are many different designs now than there used to be.
Since it would just be for me, I don't want anything large or heavy. I know longer boats track better and because of the longer waterline are typically faster but keeping a boat on track isn't really a problem if you know how to paddle and I'm not looking to race the thing so speed isn't a huge issue, although I don't want something that would be so hard to paddle that it would be like trying to go through molasses.
I'm looking at canoes over kayaks because I simply don't do kayaks well. Every time I've been in one I've dumped it. Not exactly a good thing if I've got my camera gear on board. Although I've only ever been in 'traditional' kayaks and these 'sit on top' style boats look like they might be more stable. Thoughts on those?
There's no outfitter within about a 2 hour drive where I can put the boat in the water and try before buying. That's unfortunate but it is what it is. I'm going to have to rely on the knowledge of the people in the store, reviews I can find of boats I may be interested in and the personal experience of others (hence this thread).
So, tips on things to look for, personal experience with a type/brand are appreciated.
Thanks.
Posted by Ron Pullen on August 23, 2008 at 9:56 AM
Robert, my last canoe was a 17ft. Wenonah 'Encounter'. It was a solo canoe and only weighed 40lbs. Not a very stable boat and you won't want a solo boat because of the fact that you sit in the middle, which makes it difficult for your gear and your shooting options. However, I would only purchase a Wenonah, only I would go with a wide tandem canoe. They are a little expensive but well worth it. You'll only be looking at around 40 to 50 lbs.. I too am looking at buying another one. Watch E-bay, you can find some good deals there. Ron
Hopefully Kent S will sign on (Sorry, but I can't remember how to spell his last name!). He's done a lot of this in the past. I haven't tried one for photography, but every time I've been in a Poke Boat I've been greatly impressed with its stability. You can't beat the light weight for transport and solo handling, either. Short overall length is handy for vehicle transport too, as well as portaging.
There are a number of considerations in determining a canoe, particularly terrain and gear.
If you are in an area that requires a lot of portaging you will have to take three trips. One for the canoe another for the camera pack and another for your camping gear. When I shot in northern Ontario and Quebec my choice was a 14' solo canoe made of Kevlar weighing about 55lbs. The choice was largely based on weight due to the many portages and it would hold enough gear for a couple of weeks in the bush.
We were up to look at a canoe the other day and the saleswoman was pointing out some of the newer materials such as plastics you can hammer out if you hit a rock. Pricey though.
We currently have a 17' Mad River kevlar which a friend gave us before going overseas. He took it from the Pacific Ocean up to Great Slave Lake and on up the Mackenzie River to the Beaufort Sea. At 65 the portages were a bit much so he rigged a cradle and wheels to pull it and his gear across portages. Haven't tried it for photography as the wife is a novice canoer!
Can you write off canoe rentals for taxes? My practise was to rent which let me choose a canoe which best suited the purpose at the time.
Dave
Posted by Larry Fischer on August 23, 2008 at 1:22 PM
OK, just a thought about lightness. OK going downstream or on a lake, or perhaps even pulling upstream. I live in Kansas but have a canoe in Alaska. It is heavy and it has a motor. Why? At least half the time I want to go upstream. If you want photos on rivers, this is one way (actually 2 ways to go). This is a 19.5 Grumman with a motor lift and a 20 hp Mercury with a jet unit. It will run in about 4-6" of water. But, if you don't do wild rivers upstream, I'm sorry to have taken your time. And, not all rivers allow motors....
Posted by Kent Staubus on August 23, 2008 at 6:33 PM
There is another kind of kayak that is very stable. It's so stable you can shoot a 12 gauge shotgun from it. These are the duck boats. I have a ten foot one and it is perfect. It's 38 inches wide (beam,) weighs about 65 pounds, capacity 400 pounds, very low in the water so it's not only stable it's "sneaky," and it is highly manueverable. I think it's much more stable and easier to use than a canoe. I've never dumped mine and I've had it out on big glacial lakes in some very hellish blizzard conditions. Not that I recommend doing that, LOL! Most of the large sporting goods stores sell these kinds of boats. Mine is a Carstens Puddler.
I built a camo blind for it and have used it often for taking photos. I am planning to use it again in coming weeks to take photos of a railroad bridge at night (big flash units for light) on the Minnesota River. Kayaks are much easier to paddle. I've used sit-on-tops and despise them. I get soaking wet, and that's not good when it's 40 degrees. They are stable though.
The downside is that in a kayak, everything can get wet. I do keep my camera gear in a dry bag when not in use. I still think the Carsten type duck boats are much more stable than a canoe. A Poke Boat is another good choice.
About the only way you're going to tip this 38 inch wide thing over is to stand up in it. I even get away with that sometimes. Note that there is a lot of room for 2-3 bags of duck decoys. You can set up a tripod in that space too, which is useful if the boat is aground.
I sometimes just throw a camo tarp over me, lie down in the boat, and take photos with the lens resting on the gunwale. I'm about 8 inches off the water doing that, which is a cool perspective.
Here's the kayak I've got.... I'm in Kona right now and today I met two guys that just got in from a round trip voyage to Maui ( ) on the same kayak w/ sail. 8 hours one way. It's very stable, and adding outriggers make them even more stable even in the open ocean. The pedaling feature leaves my hands free for photography. No paddling makes for silence when approaching wildlife, and you don't even want to think about racing me in your canoe. Just another option to consider.... http://www.hobiecat.com/kayaking/index.html
Posted by Robert Fisher on August 24, 2008 at 8:18 AM
Thanks all for the feedback. Larry, if it's got a motor on it, it ain't a canoe.
I'm looking mainly at flatwater. Small lakes and open rivers. Little to no whitewater/rapids activity. The exception being if I get caught out when a wind/storm comes up. I'm looking at day trips rather than overnights. Although even with overnights, three trips for a portage is excessive. Going lightly, with the right pack, with the camera gear in the same pack as the rest of the gear it can be done in one.
Outriggers are good for open ocean paddling (or pedaling ) but not so good for what I'm looking to do. Stability would definitely be good though.
David, I was actually looking at the Mad River website recently. Their boats seem to get decent reviews. Prices are fairly good. Rather than the one you noted, I was looking at the Synergy though.
Posted by Andy Richards on August 24, 2008 at 9:57 AM
Robert: Here is a site I found useful in my own search for a canoe. http://www.paddling.net/buyersguide. I especially liked the Product Reviews, which are written by users and posted on the site. I won't try to "tell" you what to do or what to get. Instead, I'll tell you what I did. Hope some part of it is helpful.
Last year, I went through the same thing, trying to find a canoe or kayak that would suit my purposes for photography. I appears that some of my criteria was the same as yours -- i.e., day trips, relatively flat water (I wanted to use mine on small streams and rivers and small inland lakes in the national forests here in MI). I have been a sometime canoe paddler since learning canoeing at Boy Scout Camp and YMCA camps in N. Michigan during my youth, so I was more comfortable with a canoe.
I did start a short thread here and got some good guidance and comments. It seems like most folk split into two camps -- the canoe camp and the kayak camp. One or two, like Kent, suggest the duckboat and Kent definitely puts his to good use.
Sounds like you have canoing experience, so you are probably familiar with design and construction and know that the key to all these boats (canoe and kayak alike) is where you will use them and for what. A relatively flat-bottomed canoe with good initial stability my work really well in the conditions I described, and be a disaster in fast water, or open water with waves and wind. A boat that is good for those conditions can have lower initial stability and seem very "tippy" for conditions I want to use it in.
I was looking for a kind of difficult compromise. I wanted a relatively stable shooting platform that was lightweight and maneuverable. I also needed solo capability (I have an Old Town Camper that is perfect for two people -- reasonable weight and very initially stable) but is nearly impossible for one to paddle). The solo canoes are narrower at the beam and therefore are going to feel more "tippy" than some wider tandem canoes (like the Camper). Other important criteria included durability, ease of maintenance and especially, affordability. Finding a used canoe--in my experience--is difficult.
For my personal decision --canoe vs. kayak-- the following factors were important. In some of the rivers and streams I would be in, using a kayak paddle would be difficult because of overhanging brush, stringers, etc. Because of the nature of the kayak paddle, there will always be water running into the boat (off the paddles) -- typically right where I want my gear to be). Comfort. We are all build differently. I find the low position in kayaks (and in some canoes) very uncomfortable on my back and legs. I also find it more difficult to move around in such a boat. The canoe gives me a higher sitting position (and since I am on flat water, that works fine for me). I can kneel in the canoe if necessary.
I eventually settled on a Mohawk Solo 14. www.mohawkcanoes.com. (You can see a photo of the front 1/3 of my boat from my seated position on my website under the Great Lakes Maritime Gallery -- not much, but maybe an idea of construction). I found the Mohawk brand on the paddlers.net website. To my knowledge they are only factory direct and not sold in any retail outlets. The downside to that is that you can't go look at them unless you live in or near Tennessee, where they are built. After reading on the various forums, I took a chance. They are well built, (mine from Royalex) and comparable to the Old Town Canoes, IMHO. They best part is price. My Solo 14 cost me about $800, delivered to my local freight depot (they truck them and you have to make arrangements to go to the local depot and pick them up). It is very light and handles well on the water. For its narrow beam, it is also surprisingly stable. I have been pleased with it. Dealing with Mohawk was easy. I spoke once on the telephone with the owner and the rest of my communication with with e-mail. They build your boat after you order it. Color and materials choice may depend on availability to them of the Royalex (or Royalite) sheets. They were courteous and helpful and I think my boat was shipped about a week after order (or less) and arrived within days.
Another model I considered is the Old Town "Pack," which appears comparably priced. My concern with the pack was its round- bottomed design and its shorter length (12'). I am 6'2" and over 200 lbs and had some concerns about handling and stability. They also have a Pack Angler which looks pretty nice and is slightly more $.
Hope something here is helpful.
Posted by Robert Fisher on August 25, 2008 at 8:59 AM
Thanks Andy, that is helpful. We're about the same size. I'm 6'2" and about 195.
There are a couple decent shops in the Toronto area I can go and ask questions and actually see some boats. I'm headed to the Finger Lakes in the latter half of September and there's a shop in Rochester that is right on the water and you can try out boats so I may make a detour on my way home.
These guys look like they build some decent boats. Prices are a bit higher than some others. But they're Canadian too, so I could support "local" enterprise.
I often used Swift for my choice of canoe and was quite satisfied. If you have a spare weekend you can go up to Algonquin and try the different models at their Oxtongue or Canoe Lake locations. They used to rent out of their Brent location which is beautiful country, particularly when the fall colours come in, but I don't know that the selection is quite as wide.
Dave
Dave
Posted by Jim Sabiston on August 25, 2008 at 5:09 PM
robert,
I'll add one more option into the mix for you. I use both a kayak and a canoe for different applications. I built the kayak (Pygmy Boats Queen Charlotte XL) about 10 years ago and it makes a good vehicle and platform for open water applications. It sounds like you are more suited to a canoe and I suggest you look at Hornbeck Boats (hornbeckboats.com). These are very light canoes made especially for lakes and protected water. They are all hand made by two guys in the Adirondacks. They don't come cheap, as they are not made on an assembly line and use strictly kevlar and/or carbon fiber construction. I have the 12 footer tandem, which makes a good solo boat for me (6' 3" and 215 lbs). They recently started making a 14 footer, too. My 12 kevlar 12 footer weighs in at 24 pounds! I've done week long trips with full camping and photo setups. I trip carries only - to use the local term for 'portaging'!
Note that these little boats carry more beam than a kayak, but you sit on the bottom like a kayak, which makes them supremely stable. The seat postion is somewhat adjustable in relation to the fixed backrest and is surprisingly comfortable - YMMV.
I've used mine for 4-5 years now and would never give it up.
Hi,
I'm not any kind of expert. However, here on the Miramichi River ( New Brunswick ), Old Town products are by far the most popular. One reason, I'm sure, is that the factory is not that far away and one can buy directly from the factory; usually seconds or thirds. Hey we're Maritimers, so we don't have a whole lot of money!
Anyway, the reason I'm writing is that another main reason people choose Old Town products, something I would suggest is very important, safety. Old Town "Loon " kayaks are very stable, as are Old Town Discovery canoes. They are quite heavy, compared to some of the others, due to their triple hull construction. However, also due to their triple hull construction, they will float , even if completely filled with water.
I think that is a very important feature, especially if you venture out on your own. It can save your life. Just something to think about. Tim
Posted by Robert Fisher on August 26, 2008 at 9:22 AM
Thanks again to everyone for their insights. Much appreciated. Gives me some more things to think about and look into.
Discussion
13 repliesI'm looking at buying a canoe so that I can get out on the water and add some different perspectives into my photography. I've done a fair bit of paddling in the past but not a lot in recent years. I haven't owned a canoe in probably 20 years. They're a lot different now in terms of materials they're made from and there are many different designs now than there used to be.
Since it would just be for me, I don't want anything large or heavy. I know longer boats track better and because of the longer waterline are typically faster but keeping a boat on track isn't really a problem if you know how to paddle and I'm not looking to race the thing so speed isn't a huge issue, although I don't want something that would be so hard to paddle that it would be like trying to go through molasses.
I'm looking at canoes over kayaks because I simply don't do kayaks well. Every time I've been in one I've dumped it. Not exactly a good thing if I've got my camera gear on board. Although I've only ever been in 'traditional' kayaks and these 'sit on top' style boats look like they might be more stable. Thoughts on those?
There's no outfitter within about a 2 hour drive where I can put the boat in the water and try before buying. That's unfortunate but it is what it is. I'm going to have to rely on the knowledge of the people in the store, reviews I can find of boats I may be interested in and the personal experience of others (hence this thread).
So, tips on things to look for, personal experience with a type/brand are appreciated.
Thanks.
There are a number of considerations in determining a canoe, particularly terrain and gear.
If you are in an area that requires a lot of portaging you will have to take three trips. One for the canoe another for the camera pack and another for your camping gear. When I shot in northern Ontario and Quebec my choice was a 14' solo canoe made of Kevlar weighing about 55lbs. The choice was largely based on weight due to the many portages and it would hold enough gear for a couple of weeks in the bush.
http://www.madrivercanoe.com/angler-14 looks like something that might do the trick for you.
We were up to look at a canoe the other day and the saleswoman was pointing out some of the newer materials such as plastics you can hammer out if you hit a rock. Pricey though.
We currently have a 17' Mad River kevlar which a friend gave us before going overseas. He took it from the Pacific Ocean up to Great Slave Lake and on up the Mackenzie River to the Beaufort Sea. At 65 the portages were a bit much so he rigged a cradle and wheels to pull it and his gear across portages. Haven't tried it for photography as the wife is a novice canoer!
Can you write off canoe rentals for taxes? My practise was to rent which let me choose a canoe which best suited the purpose at the time.
Dave
There is another kind of kayak that is very stable. It's so stable you can shoot a 12 gauge shotgun from it. These are the duck boats. I have a ten foot one and it is perfect. It's 38 inches wide (beam,) weighs about 65 pounds, capacity 400 pounds, very low in the water so it's not only stable it's "sneaky," and it is highly manueverable. I think it's much more stable and easier to use than a canoe. I've never dumped mine and I've had it out on big glacial lakes in some very hellish blizzard conditions. Not that I recommend doing that, LOL! Most of the large sporting goods stores sell these kinds of boats. Mine is a Carstens Puddler.
I built a camo blind for it and have used it often for taking photos. I am planning to use it again in coming weeks to take photos of a railroad bridge at night (big flash units for light) on the Minnesota River. Kayaks are much easier to paddle. I've used sit-on-tops and despise them. I get soaking wet, and that's not good when it's 40 degrees. They are stable though.
The downside is that in a kayak, everything can get wet. I do keep my camera gear in a dry bag when not in use. I still think the Carsten type duck boats are much more stable than a canoe. A Poke Boat is another good choice.
http://www.carstensindustries.com/boats.html
About the only way you're going to tip this 38 inch wide thing over is to stand up in it. I even get away with that sometimes. Note that there is a lot of room for 2-3 bags of duck decoys. You can set up a tripod in that space too, which is useful if the boat is aground.
I sometimes just throw a camo tarp over me, lie down in the boat, and take photos with the lens resting on the gunwale. I'm about 8 inches off the water doing that, which is a cool perspective.
http://www.carstensindustries.com/specifications/spec_puddler.html
Old Town, a good brand. Lighter poly plastic, 28 inches wide.
http://www.oldtowncanoe.com/kayaks/huntingFishing/
http://www.oldtowncanoe.com/kayaks/recreation/rush.html
Kent in SD
http://www.hobiecat.com/kayaking/index.html
I'm looking mainly at flatwater. Small lakes and open rivers. Little to no whitewater/rapids activity. The exception being if I get caught out when a wind/storm comes up. I'm looking at day trips rather than overnights. Although even with overnights, three trips for a portage is excessive. Going lightly, with the right pack, with the camera gear in the same pack as the rest of the gear it can be done in one.
Outriggers are good for open ocean paddling (or pedaling
David, I was actually looking at the Mad River website recently. Their boats seem to get decent reviews. Prices are fairly good. Rather than the one you noted, I was looking at the Synergy though.
Last year, I went through the same thing, trying to find a canoe or kayak that would suit my purposes for photography. I appears that some of my criteria was the same as yours -- i.e., day trips, relatively flat water (I wanted to use mine on small streams and rivers and small inland lakes in the national forests here in MI). I have been a sometime canoe paddler since learning canoeing at Boy Scout Camp and YMCA camps in N. Michigan during my youth, so I was more comfortable with a canoe.
I did start a short thread here and got some good guidance and comments. It seems like most folk split into two camps -- the canoe camp and the kayak camp. One or two, like Kent, suggest the duckboat and Kent definitely puts his to good use.
Sounds like you have canoing experience, so you are probably familiar with design and construction and know that the key to all these boats (canoe and kayak alike) is where you will use them and for what. A relatively flat-bottomed canoe with good initial stability my work really well in the conditions I described, and be a disaster in fast water, or open water with waves and wind. A boat that is good for those conditions can have lower initial stability and seem very "tippy" for conditions I want to use it in.
I was looking for a kind of difficult compromise. I wanted a relatively stable shooting platform that was lightweight and maneuverable. I also needed solo capability (I have an Old Town Camper that is perfect for two people -- reasonable weight and very initially stable) but is nearly impossible for one to paddle). The solo canoes are narrower at the beam and therefore are going to feel more "tippy" than some wider tandem canoes (like the Camper). Other important criteria included durability, ease of maintenance and especially, affordability. Finding a used canoe--in my experience--is difficult.
For my personal decision --canoe vs. kayak-- the following factors were important. In some of the rivers and streams I would be in, using a kayak paddle would be difficult because of overhanging brush, stringers, etc. Because of the nature of the kayak paddle, there will always be water running into the boat (off the paddles) -- typically right where I want my gear to be). Comfort. We are all build differently. I find the low position in kayaks (and in some canoes) very uncomfortable on my back and legs. I also find it more difficult to move around in such a boat. The canoe gives me a higher sitting position (and since I am on flat water, that works fine for me). I can kneel in the canoe if necessary.
I eventually settled on a Mohawk Solo 14. www.mohawkcanoes.com. (You can see a photo of the front 1/3 of my boat from my seated position on my website under the Great Lakes Maritime Gallery -- not much, but maybe an idea of construction). I found the Mohawk brand on the paddlers.net website. To my knowledge they are only factory direct and not sold in any retail outlets. The downside to that is that you can't go look at them unless you live in or near Tennessee, where they are built. After reading on the various forums, I took a chance. They are well built, (mine from Royalex) and comparable to the Old Town Canoes, IMHO. They best part is price. My Solo 14 cost me about $800, delivered to my local freight depot (they truck them and you have to make arrangements to go to the local depot and pick them up). It is very light and handles well on the water. For its narrow beam, it is also surprisingly stable. I have been pleased with it. Dealing with Mohawk was easy. I spoke once on the telephone with the owner and the rest of my communication with with e-mail. They build your boat after you order it. Color and materials choice may depend on availability to them of the Royalex (or Royalite) sheets. They were courteous and helpful and I think my boat was shipped about a week after order (or less) and arrived within days.
Another model I considered is the Old Town "Pack," which appears comparably priced. My concern with the pack was its round- bottomed design and its shorter length (12'). I am 6'2" and over 200 lbs and had some concerns about handling and stability. They also have a Pack Angler which looks pretty nice and is slightly more $.
Hope something here is helpful.
There are a couple decent shops in the Toronto area I can go and ask questions and actually see some boats. I'm headed to the Finger Lakes in the latter half of September and there's a shop in Rochester that is right on the water and you can try out boats so I may make a detour on my way home.
These guys look like they build some decent boats. Prices are a bit higher than some others. But they're Canadian too, so I could support "local" enterprise.
I often used Swift for my choice of canoe and was quite satisfied. If you have a spare weekend you can go up to Algonquin and try the different models at their Oxtongue or Canoe Lake locations. They used to rent out of their Brent location which is beautiful country, particularly when the fall colours come in, but I don't know that the selection is quite as wide.
Dave
Dave
I'll add one more option into the mix for you. I use both a kayak and a canoe for different applications. I built the kayak (Pygmy Boats Queen Charlotte XL) about 10 years ago and it makes a good vehicle and platform for open water applications. It sounds like you are more suited to a canoe and I suggest you look at Hornbeck Boats (hornbeckboats.com). These are very light canoes made especially for lakes and protected water. They are all hand made by two guys in the Adirondacks. They don't come cheap, as they are not made on an assembly line and use strictly kevlar and/or carbon fiber construction. I have the 12 footer tandem, which makes a good solo boat for me (6' 3" and 215 lbs). They recently started making a 14 footer, too. My 12 kevlar 12 footer weighs in at 24 pounds! I've done week long trips with full camping and photo setups. I trip carries only - to use the local term for 'portaging'!
Note that these little boats carry more beam than a kayak, but you sit on the bottom like a kayak, which makes them supremely stable. The seat postion is somewhat adjustable in relation to the fixed backrest and is surprisingly comfortable - YMMV.
I've used mine for 4-5 years now and would never give it up.
Good luck with your search!
I'm not any kind of expert. However, here on the Miramichi River ( New Brunswick ), Old Town products are by far the most popular. One reason, I'm sure, is that the factory is not that far away and one can buy directly from the factory; usually seconds or thirds. Hey we're Maritimers, so we don't have a whole lot of money!
Anyway, the reason I'm writing is that another main reason people choose Old Town products, something I would suggest is very important, safety. Old Town "Loon " kayaks are very stable, as are Old Town Discovery canoes. They are quite heavy, compared to some of the others, due to their triple hull construction. However, also due to their triple hull construction, they will float , even if completely filled with water.
I think that is a very important feature, especially if you venture out on your own. It can save your life. Just something to think about. Tim