Posted by Nick Leadley on September 10, 2008 at 11:16 PM
This is a question certainly aimed at anyone doing a fair amount of black and white printing.
I have both a Epson R1800 and Canon i9900....both of which work great for color photos.
But when printing black and white with the i9900 I get a constant blue/magenta color cast in the shadow and midtone areas. Has anyone else encountered this and might have a solution.
With the R1800, regardless of the black and white conversion method, there is a constant magenta cast across the board. Any thoughts?
My monitor is regularly calibrated and I have profiles for the paper I use, which is mostly matte paper for black and white printing.
Second question...can anyone recommend a printer for black and white printing?
Thanks!
Posted by Kelly Rowe on September 11, 2008 at 8:49 AM
Check out http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl?c=362672 You can convert your 1800 to be an outstanding B&W printer. Otherwise check into an R2400 or the new R2880.
Posted by John Mumaw on September 11, 2008 at 9:19 AM
I know this isn't the answer you seek, but if your b&w output is relatively scant, consider using Mpix for your b&w reprints.
The Ilford True B&W paper that they use is simply superb, and their service is probably less expensive than doing it at home.
Posted by Robert Fisher on September 11, 2008 at 9:22 AM
Having tried third party inksets in other printers (both colour and b&w) it's not a route I'd recommend. While I got terrific b&w results, I also had to deal with 3 fatal head clogs. After replacing the print head twice, I opted not to a third time. You may not have a clogging problem or any other problem but be aware that those problems can and do occur and that there's a greater likelihood of them with third party inks than OEM inks.
For high quality b&w printing, a printer with multiple black/grey inks is key. That's what the third party inksets have been doing for years and it's what Epson finally figured out with the 2200. Even with the Light Black ink in the 2200 getting dead neutral prints was an exercise in frustration. With only a single black ink, it can be even tougher.
The 2400 has been replaced by the 2880. The 2880 uses the same K3 inkset as the larger xx80 models with the Vivid Magenta. There's also a new print head with better screening technology. I believe it's based on the 3800 head which was the first model to have the finer screening. If you can find a 2400, you may be able to pick one up at a fairly reasonable price since it's been replaced. Otherwise, the 2880 would be the way to go. The Canon Pixma 9500 has a second black (grey) ink but that third black (grey) ink in the Epsons really does make a difference in the ability to reproduce finer tonality and more subtle gradations.
Posted by Nick Leadley on September 11, 2008 at 10:50 PM
Thanks for the responses.
On further investigation this morning when I was slightly more coherent, I learned two things, just an FYI for anyone else who reads this:
1. Neither printer seems suited for black and white.
2. The appearance of the color cast in the midtone and shadow areas seemed to be related to color noise in those areas. Why the color cast showed in a black and white conversion is beyond me.
I tried two different methods of converting with the same result, which leads me to believe it is a quirk of the printer, particularly the Canon. There was less problem with the gradation with the Epson.
Use of the Reduce Noise filter solved the problem somewhat, but there was still a problem in smooth transitions in the gradation in those areas.
Posted by Robert Fisher on September 12, 2008 at 9:08 AM
Nick, both those printers use a single black ink. Single black ink printers don't do b&w particularly well.
In order to generate the various shades of grey they either do it through the dithering pattern - combination black ink and paper white in various combinations so that they eye 'sees' grey; or by mixing the other colours together in various combinations to generate a grey.
In darker areas more black ink is used so the colour cast may be less evident. In lighter areas more paper white is showing so the colour cast may be less evident. In the middle tones though, where the printer is mixing more of the other colours to try and create grey, the colour cast may be more noticeable. It's difficult to mix coloured inks into to create shades of grey.
If there's noise or 'grain' in the image then there's more mixing needing to be done and the mix needs to be changed more frequently than it would in an area of continuous tone. By applying noise reduction, you're helping make the area more continuous tone which is easier for the printer to 'figure out'.
John's suggestion of using a third party service is a very good one. If you're not printing b&w all the time, it might be the way to go. Services like MPix and El Co Color do an excellent job. They offer traditional b&w on photographic b&w paper or inkjet b&w on a variety of different papers.
Posted by Nick Leadley on September 12, 2008 at 5:55 PM
Robert....
Thanks for the reply. You just described very clearly what I sort of figured out, that there was color mixing taking place by the printer to arrive at what it thought was a midtone.
The sugegstion of a third party service sounds like a valid suggestion. Thanks again for all your help.
after trying both 2200 and 1800, one thing i tell you, forget these for true, traditional looking BW prints. As of now I'm quite busy on home front with 3 week old baby boy and at work it isn't getting any better so no printing for me for some time to come. However, I think a set of BW inks for any printer (what robert suggested) is the way to go. Do let us know what you did and how well it is working for you.
Posted by Andre Joanisse on September 17, 2008 at 7:32 AM
Nick,
I have the Epson 2400 and am pretty happy with it for b&w. If you are able to stretch to the 3800, you will find the running costs of the printer to be cheaper then the 2400 as the 3800 uses larger ink cartridges. However, the 3800 can't use roll paper, in case you need that feature.
Posted by Robert Fisher on September 17, 2008 at 12:07 PM
Prashant, just to clarify, I didn't suggest a third party ink set. Just the opposite actually.
Discussion
9 repliesI have both a Epson R1800 and Canon i9900....both of which work great for color photos.
But when printing black and white with the i9900 I get a constant blue/magenta color cast in the shadow and midtone areas. Has anyone else encountered this and might have a solution.
With the R1800, regardless of the black and white conversion method, there is a constant magenta cast across the board. Any thoughts?
My monitor is regularly calibrated and I have profiles for the paper I use, which is mostly matte paper for black and white printing.
Second question...can anyone recommend a printer for black and white printing?
Thanks!
The Ilford True B&W paper that they use is simply superb, and their service is probably less expensive than doing it at home.
For high quality b&w printing, a printer with multiple black/grey inks is key. That's what the third party inksets have been doing for years and it's what Epson finally figured out with the 2200. Even with the Light Black ink in the 2200 getting dead neutral prints was an exercise in frustration. With only a single black ink, it can be even tougher.
The 2400 has been replaced by the 2880. The 2880 uses the same K3 inkset as the larger xx80 models with the Vivid Magenta. There's also a new print head with better screening technology. I believe it's based on the 3800 head which was the first model to have the finer screening. If you can find a 2400, you may be able to pick one up at a fairly reasonable price since it's been replaced. Otherwise, the 2880 would be the way to go. The Canon Pixma 9500 has a second black (grey) ink but that third black (grey) ink in the Epsons really does make a difference in the ability to reproduce finer tonality and more subtle gradations.
On further investigation this morning when I was slightly more coherent, I learned two things, just an FYI for anyone else who reads this:
1. Neither printer seems suited for black and white.
2. The appearance of the color cast in the midtone and shadow areas seemed to be related to color noise in those areas. Why the color cast showed in a black and white conversion is beyond me.
I tried two different methods of converting with the same result, which leads me to believe it is a quirk of the printer, particularly the Canon. There was less problem with the gradation with the Epson.
Use of the Reduce Noise filter solved the problem somewhat, but there was still a problem in smooth transitions in the gradation in those areas.
In order to generate the various shades of grey they either do it through the dithering pattern - combination black ink and paper white in various combinations so that they eye 'sees' grey; or by mixing the other colours together in various combinations to generate a grey.
In darker areas more black ink is used so the colour cast may be less evident. In lighter areas more paper white is showing so the colour cast may be less evident. In the middle tones though, where the printer is mixing more of the other colours to try and create grey, the colour cast may be more noticeable. It's difficult to mix coloured inks into to create shades of grey.
If there's noise or 'grain' in the image then there's more mixing needing to be done and the mix needs to be changed more frequently than it would in an area of continuous tone. By applying noise reduction, you're helping make the area more continuous tone which is easier for the printer to 'figure out'.
John's suggestion of using a third party service is a very good one. If you're not printing b&w all the time, it might be the way to go. Services like MPix and El Co Color do an excellent job. They offer traditional b&w on photographic b&w paper or inkjet b&w on a variety of different papers.
Thanks for the reply. You just described very clearly what I sort of figured out, that there was color mixing taking place by the printer to arrive at what it thought was a midtone.
The sugegstion of a third party service sounds like a valid suggestion. Thanks again for all your help.
I have the Epson 2400 and am pretty happy with it for b&w. If you are able to stretch to the 3800, you will find the running costs of the printer to be cheaper then the 2400 as the 3800 uses larger ink cartridges. However, the 3800 can't use roll paper, in case you need that feature.