Posted by Steve Foss on September 14, 2008 at 12:00 AM
Hmmm, hope I got you with that headline.
Really, I'm hoping that all of you who believe our environment is worth preserving and restoring (and isn't that darn near every one of us?) will consider working to capture images that fall within the environmental photojournalism category of expression.
We have a board here on NPN specifically for images that tell stories about human degradation of our natural resources. In some ways it flirts with Man and Nature, but there are some key differences. The guidelines are there to help us all along. EPJ gets little traffic compared with many other photo critique boards, and considering how much we all have invested in our environment, that's a bit of a shame.
Now, I have no horse in this race, other than the fact that I am an NPN member who spent many years in newspaper journalism as a reporter, designer, editor and photographer, so I have come to love and appreciate an EPJ image that kicks my butt and makes me mad. EPJ is, after all, an activist's statement. And this is an area of expression on NPN that's the perfect reflection of most of our ideals. Yes?
C'mon now, put your sensor where your mouth is. I promise to show you mine if you'll show us yours. Not to mention, excellent EPJ images can find some nice markets.
Posted by Jim Erhardt on September 14, 2008 at 5:02 AM
Steve, thanks for the reminder about the EPJ gallery!
I would like to add that the photos posted there do not have to be "in your face" kind of EPJ photos. Sometimes, just subtle aspects of the photo that depict the theme can be as powerful.
We look forward to seeing your photos there!
Posted by Robert Fisher on September 14, 2008 at 8:55 AM
I don't want to start a firestorm with this comment; but, in the guidelines for the EPJ forum it's stated that comments should be about the image itself and how well it conveys a message or how it could be improved to better convey a message. Further, it states that there should be no discussion of the underlying issues that the message of the photo conveys.
How can we have one without the other? Simply posting photos that supposedly convey a message about the damage we're doing to the world around us without discussion of the concepts and ideas surrounding the topic seems a bit empty.
Now, I understand that some of those types of discussions could get pretty nasty. It would potentially be more work for the moderators for sure. Maybe adding a mod or two to that forum would help ease the load somewhat. It seems, though, that if we're not willing or able to discuss the topics that these photos are about then why even bother? At that point, doesn't it just become another photo like any other? I mean, if a group like this, that's supposed to be really concerned about conservation, preservation and sustainability, can't discuss the topics in depth - albeit in a civil manner - then should we even bother with a gallery like EPJ?
Posted by Jim Erhardt on September 14, 2008 at 9:59 AM
Robert, the Hot Topics forum is for the discussion part, the EPJ gallery is for evaluating/critiquing the effectiveness of the photos. No problem posting a photo in EPJ and then posting a link to a thread in the HT forum to discuss the issues.
This may seem a round-about way of doing it, be we would like to make that distinction between those two forums.
Posted by Stan Rose on September 14, 2008 at 10:16 AM
I dont see a problem with a simple acknowlegement of the underlying proposition. For example, id like to think that there is no one here who would actively promote polluting the environment or whatever. Many of the comments in the Gallery do voice an opinion, and i havent seen any problems arise yet. Right now, there are shots posted one year ago that are still on the first page. That's pretty unfortunate, given the traffic a gallery like ESS receives. I'm with you, Steve!
Posted by Robert Fisher on September 14, 2008 at 10:42 AM
I've been real slack about moderating over there due to ongoing limits of my connection. With 2.1k download rates it takes over 10 minutes just to open the thumbnail page. A NPN-standard 200k photo isn't bad to open, only a couple of minutes or so. But images that are links to mongo files on other servers can take a lunch hour to open.
So, excuses out of the way, here's my take on the question of issue comments:
I heartily agree with Jim about directing issue discussions to the Hot Topics forum. They belong there in my opinion. Why?
Because for me the more important role of EPJ is to help you hone your photos to best convey your message, not for us to debate your message. Drifting (or diving) into issue debates quickly diverts the discussion away from questions of how effective a photo is for conveying a specific message and ways to improve the photo if needed to do a better job.
Issue debates are a dime a dozen and never resolve a gosh-darned thing. They're good for chest pounding, but don't contribute a thing to the photographer's efforts to illustrate, even dramatize a particular issue. I might or might not agree with your sentiments, but that's not the point of the gallery. It's there to help you do the best photographic job possible for a cause that means a lot to you. Debates about photo technique are fine, but issue debates belong in the Hot Topics forum.
Anything wrong with that?
Or is it better to provide yet another place for battering each other, meanwhile requiring Jim to find another moderator? Heck, it might even be time for Jim to find a moderator with an ISP using equipment that wasn't originally built by Henry Ford himself!!!!
Posted by Steve Foss on September 14, 2008 at 11:15 AM
Because for me the more important role of EPJ is to help you hone you photos to best convey your message, not for us to debate your message. Drifting (or diving) into issue debates quickly diverts the discussion away from questions of how effective a photo is for conveying a specific message and ways to improve the photo if needed to do a better job.
Issue debates are a dime a dozen and never resolve a gosh-darned thing. They're good for chest pounding, but don't contribute a thing to the photographer's efforts to illustrate, even dramatize a particular issue. I might or might not agree with your sentiments, but that's not the point of the gallery. It's there to help you do the best photographic job possible for a cause that means a lot to you. Debates about photo technique are fine, but issue debates belong in the Hot Topics forum.
Nicely said, Hank!
And FWIW, my interpretation of the guidelines is that telling the back story doesn't mean the actual issue isn't mentioned, just that it not be debated or harped upon there.
Jim, I agree with you. Subtlety and understatement, particularly in a society that seems caught up in bombast and raised voices, can resonate strongly.
"And FWIW, my interpretation of the guidelines is that telling the back story doesn't mean the actual issue isn't mentioned, just that it not be debated or harped upon there. "
I'll go one step beyond and say that the back story is important to the post. specifically so your viewers can understand what you're trying to accomplish with the photo.
It takes a high degree of maturity from reviewers to exercize restraint and not attack the ideas while helping with the photos. If you can't do that, then by all means click yourself over to the Hot Topics forum and mount your issue debate there. That's what Hot Topics is for!!!!!!!!!
Posted by Steve Foss on September 14, 2008 at 12:47 PM
Right on, Hank.
I think it's also worth noting that most people posting images in there (with of course a few exceptions) seem to post and forget, or at least don't come back after people comment and thank them for commenting or answer questions or address issues brought up in the critiques.
Responding to others who have posted about your photo is as important on EPJ as it is on any other photo sharing/critique board. Dialog adds a tremendous value to the critique/learning process.
Just so everyone understands my frame of reference (and to bolster Steve's last point), my background includes lots of photography teaching. The principle feature of my classes was photo assignments and followup reviews by the whole class in subsequent sessions. Pretty standard photo class format. I could yap and yuck and flap my arms all day long giving lectures, but the real learning came about in discussion of the photos. Lots of give and take and thoughtful comment regarding strengths and weakness of the photos in meeting the shooting assignment, strong points to build on and challenges to be resolved.
A huge part of my job was teaching people how to make and receive constructive criticism. It's a learned skill just like learning to manually focus around a hyperfocal scale.
I thnk my job as moderator of EPJ is roughly the same: EPJ is the shooting assignment, followed by giving constructive criticism to photos I review while helping others learn to give and receive constructively. It's really an easy job when the discussion is confined to photo reviews and improvements. It's an impossible job if everyone has to wear hipboots and wade through issue debates to get to the photos.
The photos are yours taken with the intent to support your own causes. My ambition is to help you use your camera in support of your causes. I'll moderate that kind of discussion all day long whether I love or hate your issue. But I'll not endure debates about your issue.
Posted by Steve Foss on September 14, 2008 at 1:55 PM
I could yap and yuck and flap my arms all day long
That right there would be worth the price of admission. Red-haired outdoors photographer guy basically as tall as Bigfoot yapping and flapping his arms. Bet that clears the classroom in a hurry!
Good statement of what moderation entails, BTW.
Posted by David Senesac on September 14, 2008 at 7:14 PM
Most of such pic's I make are with my Coolpix and not intended to be aesthetic. I've been taking pics of environmental abuse in the Sierra backcountry with my tiny compact digital cameras for years. And sometime will send the jpg's off to national forest offices. The abuse see the most and have most pics of are firerings built above legal campfire elevation limits of alpine regions. I and those I backpack with often tear them apart, scattering the rocks. Another abuse I sometimes see and record and or comment on, are those that create illegal unnecessary tentspots too close to lakes, like on the following webpage just above page bottom:
Now we're talking David! That's the stuff I like to see over there. Speaking hypothetically (and in order to stimulate discussion of the photo) I might bring up the difference between evidentiary or forensic photography and promotional photography before offering even the slightest suggestion of ways to change what you're doing. If you were shooting for an official poster or ad campaign to illustrate the problem, that would put an extra layer of comp and lighting concerns on the photos.
I once had the great pleasure of photographing a couple of guys dumping a stripped car off a truck along a Kodiak river. I used my nephews disposable cardboard camera and never saw the photos, but the state troopers were really glad to be handed the camera. I had to buy my nephew a replacement camera, but it was the best $20 I've ever spent. Never had to go to court and testify because after seeing me with the camera, and the state trooper knocking on their door a couple of hours later with the camera in his hand they were more than willing to retrieve the wreck immediately. From what I understand, they didn't even hire a lawyer to contest the charges when it came to court a few months later. Very often EPJ is more about being in the right place at the right time with a camera----- any camera.
Ah, the power of EPJ!!!!! And the many forms and places that fall into the realm.
Posted by Carol Hyman on September 16, 2008 at 12:32 PM
Folks, there are 1001 issues in our lives that we see on a daily basis and we are slack or too busy and we don't do a thing about it.
I'll name only a few issues that I see--folks near Vegas using the desert for a dump; the same thing is true here in Utah in the Santa Clara river valley. I despise the construction dust that wontedly blows in the Ivins and Saint George area--no one gives a fiddle and I've not had a chance to shoot it.
Steve, thank you for your comments on my image Why ? Based on your comments, I know I need to go down there with a shorter lens to shoot the wall, exposing for the graffiti, and then I'll send the resulting image and my comments to the editorial section of the local papers in Utah, Arizona, and Nevada. Why? Because I care. Perhaps I'll be tilting at windmills but at least I'll be a voice in the local scene who does care. Perhaps other people will take notice; perhaps some action will be taken. I don't know ...
Posting at EPJ is only a start and is something I would encourage all of us to do.
Carol
Posted by John Mumaw on September 16, 2008 at 9:07 PM
Folks, there are 1001 issues in our lives that we see on a daily basis and we are slack or too busy and we don't do a thing about it.
The phrase many of us is much more accurate than the all inclusive (and patronizing) 'we'.
Discussion
15 repliesReally, I'm hoping that all of you who believe our environment is worth preserving and restoring (and isn't that darn near every one of us?) will consider working to capture images that fall within the environmental photojournalism category of expression.
We have a board here on NPN specifically for images that tell stories about human degradation of our natural resources. In some ways it flirts with Man and Nature, but there are some key differences. The guidelines are there to help us all along. EPJ gets little traffic compared with many other photo critique boards, and considering how much we all have invested in our environment, that's a bit of a shame.
Now, I have no horse in this race, other than the fact that I am an NPN member who spent many years in newspaper journalism as a reporter, designer, editor and photographer, so I have come to love and appreciate an EPJ image that kicks my butt and makes me mad. EPJ is, after all, an activist's statement. And this is an area of expression on NPN that's the perfect reflection of most of our ideals. Yes?
C'mon now, put your sensor where your mouth is. I promise to show you mine if you'll show us yours. Not to mention, excellent EPJ images can find some nice markets.
I would like to add that the photos posted there do not have to be "in your face" kind of EPJ photos. Sometimes, just subtle aspects of the photo that depict the theme can be as powerful.
We look forward to seeing your photos there!
How can we have one without the other? Simply posting photos that supposedly convey a message about the damage we're doing to the world around us without discussion of the concepts and ideas surrounding the topic seems a bit empty.
Now, I understand that some of those types of discussions could get pretty nasty. It would potentially be more work for the moderators for sure. Maybe adding a mod or two to that forum would help ease the load somewhat. It seems, though, that if we're not willing or able to discuss the topics that these photos are about then why even bother? At that point, doesn't it just become another photo like any other? I mean, if a group like this, that's supposed to be really concerned about conservation, preservation and sustainability, can't discuss the topics in depth - albeit in a civil manner - then should we even bother with a gallery like EPJ?
This may seem a round-about way of doing it, be we would like to make that distinction between those two forums.
So, excuses out of the way, here's my take on the question of issue comments:
I heartily agree with Jim about directing issue discussions to the Hot Topics forum. They belong there in my opinion. Why?
Because for me the more important role of EPJ is to help you hone your photos to best convey your message, not for us to debate your message. Drifting (or diving) into issue debates quickly diverts the discussion away from questions of how effective a photo is for conveying a specific message and ways to improve the photo if needed to do a better job.
Issue debates are a dime a dozen and never resolve a gosh-darned thing. They're good for chest pounding, but don't contribute a thing to the photographer's efforts to illustrate, even dramatize a particular issue. I might or might not agree with your sentiments, but that's not the point of the gallery. It's there to help you do the best photographic job possible for a cause that means a lot to you. Debates about photo technique are fine, but issue debates belong in the Hot Topics forum.
Anything wrong with that?
Or is it better to provide yet another place for battering each other, meanwhile requiring Jim to find another moderator? Heck, it might even be time for Jim to find a moderator with an ISP using equipment that wasn't originally built by Henry Ford himself!!!!
Nicely said, Hank!
And FWIW, my interpretation of the guidelines is that telling the back story doesn't mean the actual issue isn't mentioned, just that it not be debated or harped upon there.
Jim, I agree with you. Subtlety and understatement, particularly in a society that seems caught up in bombast and raised voices, can resonate strongly.
I'll go one step beyond and say that the back story is important to the post. specifically so your viewers can understand what you're trying to accomplish with the photo.
It takes a high degree of maturity from reviewers to exercize restraint and not attack the ideas while helping with the photos. If you can't do that, then by all means click yourself over to the Hot Topics forum and mount your issue debate there. That's what Hot Topics is for!!!!!!!!!
I think it's also worth noting that most people posting images in there (with of course a few exceptions) seem to post and forget, or at least don't come back after people comment and thank them for commenting or answer questions or address issues brought up in the critiques.
Responding to others who have posted about your photo is as important on EPJ as it is on any other photo sharing/critique board. Dialog adds a tremendous value to the critique/learning process.
A huge part of my job was teaching people how to make and receive constructive criticism. It's a learned skill just like learning to manually focus around a hyperfocal scale.
I thnk my job as moderator of EPJ is roughly the same: EPJ is the shooting assignment, followed by giving constructive criticism to photos I review while helping others learn to give and receive constructively. It's really an easy job when the discussion is confined to photo reviews and improvements. It's an impossible job if everyone has to wear hipboots and wade through issue debates to get to the photos.
The photos are yours taken with the intent to support your own causes. My ambition is to help you use your camera in support of your causes. I'll moderate that kind of discussion all day long whether I love or hate your issue. But I'll not endure debates about your issue.
That right there would be worth the price of admission. Red-haired outdoors photographer guy basically as tall as Bigfoot yapping and flapping his arms. Bet that clears the classroom in a hurry!
Good statement of what moderation entails, BTW.
http://www.davidsenesac.com/Iceberg_Lake/iceberg_8-11-06.html
I once had the great pleasure of photographing a couple of guys dumping a stripped car off a truck along a Kodiak river. I used my nephews disposable cardboard camera and never saw the photos, but the state troopers were really glad to be handed the camera. I had to buy my nephew a replacement camera, but it was the best $20 I've ever spent. Never had to go to court and testify because after seeing me with the camera, and the state trooper knocking on their door a couple of hours later with the camera in his hand they were more than willing to retrieve the wreck immediately. From what I understand, they didn't even hire a lawyer to contest the charges when it came to court a few months later. Very often EPJ is more about being in the right place at the right time with a camera----- any camera.
Ah, the power of EPJ!!!!! And the many forms and places that fall into the realm.
I'll name only a few issues that I see--folks near Vegas using the desert for a dump; the same thing is true here in Utah in the Santa Clara river valley. I despise the construction dust that wontedly blows in the Ivins and Saint George area--no one gives a fiddle and I've not had a chance to shoot it.
Steve, thank you for your comments on my image Why ? Based on your comments, I know I need to go down there with a shorter lens to shoot the wall, exposing for the graffiti, and then I'll send the resulting image and my comments to the editorial section of the local papers in Utah, Arizona, and Nevada. Why? Because I care. Perhaps I'll be tilting at windmills but at least I'll be a voice in the local scene who does care. Perhaps other people will take notice; perhaps some action will be taken. I don't know ...
Posting at EPJ is only a start and is something I would encourage all of us to do.
Carol
The phrase many of us is much more accurate than the all inclusive (and patronizing) 'we'.