Posted by Monika Wieland on September 28, 2008 at 3:01 AM
I realize these sorts of things get asked fairly often, but I have combed through this forum and I just haven't found a solution to my problem.
Whenever I "Save for Web" from Photoshop, I lose a lot of warmth from the photograph, especially yellows and oranges.
By reading this forum I have learned about converting to an sRGB profile under the Image > Mode menu, and also about selecting "Use Document Color Profile" under the arrow button in the Save For Web pop-up window - the latter fixes the color in the preview.
If I open my "saved for web" photo in Photoshop, the colors appear normal. If I open it in another photo program or upload it to the web, however, the colors are much blander.
Below is the current photo giving me problems - the fox's fur is much oranger, and the grass much yellower in the original.
Thank you in advance for any suggestions you may have!
Posted by Mia McPherson on September 28, 2008 at 6:32 AM
Monika,
The image you have posted is only 15.2 kb, so I might suggest compressing less, try to keep your compression so that the image is about 200 KB for web presentation.
I've never heard of a loss of color from compression that I recall, but most certainly there is a loss of detail. With the grasses & fox in this image I'd imagine it originally had quite a lot of detail.
Posted by Steve Foss on September 28, 2008 at 8:34 AM
Leah is right on, Monika. When saving a 720-pixel image for Web using CS2, I'm generally around 80 to 90 percent on the jpeg quality scale. I pull the quality slider as far to the right as I can get away with and keep it within the 200 Kb NPN limit.
But my images always have appeared more washed out on NPN than they do on my monitor, and just last week an NPN member gave me a great tip. Before saving for web, drag down from the "edit" menu and select "assign profile," choosing sRGB. Then from the same edit menu select "convert to profile" and choose your monitor as the profile. Then tweak further and save for web.
Since doing that, what appears on my save for web screen is almost perfectly what I see after posting online.
I was having some trouble with my BW images. I will have to check what is going wrong, till not it worked fine. For color images converting to monitor profile solved many of my problems earlier, but i've switched to sRGB and been happy with the minor shift.
Posted by Robert Fisher on September 28, 2008 at 9:20 AM
Monika, what editing program are you using?
Yes, the Save for Web option can often kick the life out of colours. In CS3 though, that's been corrected. In earlier versions of PS, the document had the colour profile stripped entirely. In CS3, the SFW command converts the file to sRGB which will retain colour fidelity as much as possible.
If you're not working with CS3 then avoiding the SFW command and using Save As is a better route to go. Before saving use the Convert To option to convert your image from whatever profile you're working with to sRGB. Don't use Assign Profile. That will cause the same kind of colour shift that you're experiencing now.
Posted by Steve Foss on September 28, 2008 at 9:32 AM
Robert, I'm a bit confused now. I started using the "assign profile" to choose sRGB and that, coupled with converting to my monitor's profile as well, has produced "saved for Web" images that look the same on my screen in PS as they do posted online.
There seems to be no color shift at all. But this is not my area of expertise, so can you elaborate?
Posted by Robert Fisher on September 28, 2008 at 11:34 AM
Steve, I can try to elaborate, sure.
Assign and Convert to do very different things to an image.
Assigning a profile doesn't actually change the colour numbers in the file. The colour numbers remain the same and are displayed with the new profile. The effect of this is that while the colour numbers don't change, because of the gamut of the various colour spaces and profiles, the actual colours in the photo will change because, for example, 112, 231, 47 is a different physical colour in ProPhotoRGB than it is in sRGB. Assign also doesn't use Rendering Intents so out of gamut colours aren't dealt with as well.
Convert to actually changes the colour numbers so that the physical colour remains the same. Convert to also uses Rendering Intents so that out of gamut colours are handled more accurately. Rendering intents aren't necessary for device independent colour spaces/profiles like PS working spaces but are necessary or desirable for device dependent profiles such as for monitors and printers.
Assigning a profile should really only be done when the file doesn't have a profile embedded. For example, some film scanners/software don't allow the ability to embed a profile to the scan. If you've profiled your scanner then once you open the raw, untagged scanned image in PS you would use Assign to properly tag that image with the correct profile. Once you've assigned the correct profile and the colours are correct you would then use Convert to in order to bring your image into your PS working space. Assign is really only used when an image either doesn't have a profile embedded or when the embedded profile is incorrect.
Convert to is the choice to use when moving from one profile or colour space to another. You want to keep the colours the same but adjust the colour numbers to fit into the new space.
The web is generally thought of as being an sRGB environment. It's not really but it's close enough for our needs. sRGB is a fairly small, generic colour space that virtually every monitor can render accurately. This is why sRGB is the suggested space to use for photos that will be sent via email or posted on websites.
Here are a couple examples. In the first I used Assign to change from ProPhoto to sRGB and in the second I used Convert to. The colours in the second are accurate, the colours in the first are not.
Now, with all that being said, if you're getting results you're happy with that's really all that matters. I'm personally a bit skeptical that the method would work but if it does for you then it does and continue doing it. But if your results start to waver or you start to get people telling you that your photos don't look right then you may want to consider the alternative.
Posted by Robert Fisher on September 28, 2008 at 11:35 AM
OK, I messed that up. Sorry. Let's try this again. Looks like I can only post one photo in a thread so it'll take two replies. This is the one using Assign.
Posted by Robert Fisher on September 28, 2008 at 11:37 AM
And here's the one using Convert to.
Posted by Greg Cope on September 28, 2008 at 11:53 AM
The main problem with color shifts on the internet comes from many web browsers lacking the ability to color manage images. This lack of color management is technically equivilent to assigning your monitor color profile to images.
In photoshop, with an image in sRGB, go to ProofSetup - > Custom and choose your monitor profile. In the dialog click "Preserve Color Numbers". This proof now shows how your image will look in a non-color managed application. You can use this to your advantage by then bringing things back to where they were before. Granted its not exact (what would be exact is if the internet were color managed), and there are a few particular people that might disagree with this technique for reasons I won't go into, but I personally stand by it as it will give more consistent and accurate colors in most browsers and on most monitors (I've compared images on way over 20 computer monitors - some calibrated and others not - and in all sorts of browser). http://www.naturefocused.com/articles/softproofingforweb.php
I haven't tried the monitor profile conversion thoroughly enough to know how it compares, but I'm personally a bit skeptical of the conversion out of sRGB.
Posted by Steve Foss on September 28, 2008 at 12:20 PM
Thanks, Robert and Greg, for helping me understand better.
Posted by Monika Wieland on September 28, 2008 at 8:15 PM
Thanks to everyone for your comments. I am currently using the Convert Profile, not Assign Profile, and that doesn't seem to do the trick.
I'm using Photoshop 7.0...I'm not sure where Proof Setup --> Custom is, perhaps not in my version?
I'll try everyone's suggestions and see if anything works....
Posted by Ned Fenimore on September 28, 2008 at 10:24 PM
For what it is worth - I had the exact same problem as you, with the exact symptoms. Finally I started doing this when saving for the web - (ie, to post here).
I resize the image to a final size of 720 pixels on the longest side at 72 dpi.
Then I convert that file to Image/Mode/8 bits/Channel.
Check Box: Use Black Point Compensation
Check Box; Use Dither
It worked for me - maybe for you too?
Ned
Posted by Robert Fisher on September 29, 2008 at 8:36 AM
Monika, Proof Setup is under the View menu. You want to select View>Proof Setup>Custom. A dialogue box will pop up with your options. Choose sRGB from the Device to Emulate dropdown, make sure Preserve Color Numbers below that is checked and when you do that your Rendering Intent option will become greyed out.
I'm not sure about PS7 but in CS (and earlier CS versions) you don't need to go to that extent to see the effect. Simply go to Edit>Assign Profile (or Image>Mode>Assign Profile) and select sRGB as the profile to assign then toggle on and off the Preview checkbox. This does the same thing as Proof Setup and it's a couple steps fewer.
I'm not sure why Convert isn't working for you. The image you posted above has no EXIF data which says it was probably saved with the SFW option. Are you using Convert to and then SFW? If so, that's the problem. The SFW command is stripping the existing profile and assigning sRGB. Try Convert to and then Save as, rather than SFW.
Discussion
13 repliesWhenever I "Save for Web" from Photoshop, I lose a lot of warmth from the photograph, especially yellows and oranges.
By reading this forum I have learned about converting to an sRGB profile under the Image > Mode menu, and also about selecting "Use Document Color Profile" under the arrow button in the Save For Web pop-up window - the latter fixes the color in the preview.
If I open my "saved for web" photo in Photoshop, the colors appear normal. If I open it in another photo program or upload it to the web, however, the colors are much blander.
Below is the current photo giving me problems - the fox's fur is much oranger, and the grass much yellower in the original.
Thank you in advance for any suggestions you may have!
The image you have posted is only 15.2 kb, so I might suggest compressing less, try to keep your compression so that the image is about 200 KB for web presentation.
I've never heard of a loss of color from compression that I recall, but most certainly there is a loss of detail. With the grasses & fox in this image I'd imagine it originally had quite a lot of detail.
But my images always have appeared more washed out on NPN than they do on my monitor, and just last week an NPN member gave me a great tip. Before saving for web, drag down from the "edit" menu and select "assign profile," choosing sRGB. Then from the same edit menu select "convert to profile" and choose your monitor as the profile. Then tweak further and save for web.
Since doing that, what appears on my save for web screen is almost perfectly what I see after posting online.
Cheers!
Yes, the Save for Web option can often kick the life out of colours. In CS3 though, that's been corrected. In earlier versions of PS, the document had the colour profile stripped entirely. In CS3, the SFW command converts the file to sRGB which will retain colour fidelity as much as possible.
If you're not working with CS3 then avoiding the SFW command and using Save As is a better route to go. Before saving use the Convert To option to convert your image from whatever profile you're working with to sRGB. Don't use Assign Profile. That will cause the same kind of colour shift that you're experiencing now.
There seems to be no color shift at all. But this is not my area of expertise, so can you elaborate?
Assign and Convert to do very different things to an image.
Assigning a profile doesn't actually change the colour numbers in the file. The colour numbers remain the same and are displayed with the new profile. The effect of this is that while the colour numbers don't change, because of the gamut of the various colour spaces and profiles, the actual colours in the photo will change because, for example, 112, 231, 47 is a different physical colour in ProPhotoRGB than it is in sRGB. Assign also doesn't use Rendering Intents so out of gamut colours aren't dealt with as well.
Convert to actually changes the colour numbers so that the physical colour remains the same. Convert to also uses Rendering Intents so that out of gamut colours are handled more accurately. Rendering intents aren't necessary for device independent colour spaces/profiles like PS working spaces but are necessary or desirable for device dependent profiles such as for monitors and printers.
Assigning a profile should really only be done when the file doesn't have a profile embedded. For example, some film scanners/software don't allow the ability to embed a profile to the scan. If you've profiled your scanner then once you open the raw, untagged scanned image in PS you would use Assign to properly tag that image with the correct profile. Once you've assigned the correct profile and the colours are correct you would then use Convert to in order to bring your image into your PS working space. Assign is really only used when an image either doesn't have a profile embedded or when the embedded profile is incorrect.
Convert to is the choice to use when moving from one profile or colour space to another. You want to keep the colours the same but adjust the colour numbers to fit into the new space.
The web is generally thought of as being an sRGB environment. It's not really but it's close enough for our needs. sRGB is a fairly small, generic colour space that virtually every monitor can render accurately. This is why sRGB is the suggested space to use for photos that will be sent via email or posted on websites.
Here are a couple examples. In the first I used Assign to change from ProPhoto to sRGB and in the second I used Convert to. The colours in the second are accurate, the colours in the first are not.
Now, with all that being said, if you're getting results you're happy with that's really all that matters. I'm personally a bit skeptical that the method would work but if it does for you then it does and continue doing it. But if your results start to waver or you start to get people telling you that your photos don't look right then you may want to consider the alternative.
Comparison
In photoshop, with an image in sRGB, go to ProofSetup - > Custom and choose your monitor profile. In the dialog click "Preserve Color Numbers". This proof now shows how your image will look in a non-color managed application. You can use this to your advantage by then bringing things back to where they were before. Granted its not exact (what would be exact is if the internet were color managed), and there are a few particular people that might disagree with this technique for reasons I won't go into, but I personally stand by it as it will give more consistent and accurate colors in most browsers and on most monitors (I've compared images on way over 20 computer monitors - some calibrated and others not - and in all sorts of browser).
http://www.naturefocused.com/articles/softproofingforweb.php
I haven't tried the monitor profile conversion thoroughly enough to know how it compares, but I'm personally a bit skeptical of the conversion out of sRGB.
I'm using Photoshop 7.0...I'm not sure where Proof Setup --> Custom is, perhaps not in my version?
I'll try everyone's suggestions and see if anything works....
I resize the image to a final size of 720 pixels on the longest side at 72 dpi.
Then I convert that file to Image/Mode/8 bits/Channel.
Then I Edit/Convert to Profile/sRGB IEC61966-2.1
Source Space
Profile: sRGB IEC61966-2.1
Destination Space:
Profile: sRGB IEC61966-2.1
Conversion Options
Engine: Adobe (ACE)
Intent: Relative Colorimetric
Check Box: Use Black Point Compensation
Check Box; Use Dither
It worked for me - maybe for you too?
Ned
I'm not sure about PS7 but in CS (and earlier CS versions) you don't need to go to that extent to see the effect. Simply go to Edit>Assign Profile (or Image>Mode>Assign Profile) and select sRGB as the profile to assign then toggle on and off the Preview checkbox. This does the same thing as Proof Setup and it's a couple steps fewer.
I'm not sure why Convert isn't working for you. The image you posted above has no EXIF data which says it was probably saved with the SFW option. Are you using Convert to and then SFW? If so, that's the problem. The SFW command is stripping the existing profile and assigning sRGB. Try Convert to and then Save as, rather than SFW.