Posted by Rob Haman on October 19, 2008 at 9:03 PM
Something tells me this is an issue with updating both the firmware and profiles of my printer, an Epson 4800, but I'm just not sure where to look for the issue.
I'm using an Eye One Display 2 monitor profile system, the latest firmware and profiles for the Epson 4800 and a Viewsonic LCD widescreen monitor.
Any new images I work-up in PSCS 3 to the point that they look good on the monitor, print much darker and with less color saturation than what I'm seeing on the monitor. I do realize that there will be differences between the monitors display and the printed image but this problem is beyond that difference, the print is VERY different. I also have an Epson 1400 printer for non-critical work, while the colors are off somewhat the overall image is closer to what I expect from the print.
Prints that have been worked-up in the past do come out somewhat better but still not what they should be. I'm baffled.
So, whats happened over the past few months is:
1) Replaced my older CRT monitor with a LCD monitor
2) Updated the 4800 firmware and profiles
3) Using a monitor profile system that is likely 3 years old.
I'm just not sure where to start making adjustments so any help would be a start
Rob
Posted by Dan Borzynski on October 19, 2008 at 10:24 PM
What are ALL of your printer settings? PS and Windows have a lot of them buried n various places and it is really easy to miss one. In the process of determining them, you may discover the issue.
Also, a really dumb check (we won't discuss why I am mentioning this one ) , when you are sending a print to the the 4800, you are using the 4800 settings, not the 1400 settings? The wrong profile in use can result in some "interesting" print results.
Try this quick check. In PS create a new document of sufficient size to cover the workspace area. Set the canvas color to 'white'. Now, hold a clean piece of your printing paper next to your monitor. If the screen 'white' is much brighter than than your paper's 'white', your monitor brightness is set to high. Therefore, your print will appear darker than the screen image.
If this is the case, adjust the monitor brightness down so that it matches, as closely as possible, the paper white. Once this is done, close the test canvas, open an image and run a print test. Be sure to let PS manage color, ensure the correct paper profile is being used by PS, and turn off color management in the Epson driver.
-P
Ps: Also, check to make sure your system is using the correct monitor profile. Windows can do odd things at times.
Posted by Gene Lugo on October 20, 2008 at 7:17 AM
It might have to do with bit depth. If you have a 6 bit monitor it will be difficult to accurately analyze and correct your images, since you will never be able to see all the gradations and colors contained in your image. It used to be the case that shorter response time meant lower bit depth, with the 8 bit monitors showing 20ms or slower response times. In contrast, the CRT you just replaced was able to display all the colors. I could not determine form Viewsonic's website what the bit depth is on your LCD, but I would start there.
Posted by Kelly Rowe on October 20, 2008 at 1:41 PM
Go Advanced with your eye one match software and set your monitor's luminance to 120.
Posted by Rob Haman on October 20, 2008 at 8:48 PM
I've found the primary culprit, Dan's advice to look at every setting revealed that the 4800 was using Adobe RGB as the printer profile by default rather than the EMP-MK setting it was supposed to be using. Now the colors are closer to the monitor but the overall brightness is still a little off.
This allows the print to be much closer but not exact. I will play with a couple of the other ideas offered here regarding the brightness/luminance settings. If this fails I've been looking into profiling software/tools, I've been playing with different papers for different images and it wouldn't take long to pay for the software as opposed to having profiles made.
Rob
Posted by Robert Fisher on October 21, 2008 at 8:41 AM
Rob, you're never going to get an exact match between your print and screen. You're viewing images on your screen with transmitted light and on a print with reflected light. Images on your screen will always look a bit more vibrant and a bit brighter than what you see on a print. This is normal and there's likely no need to spend significant sums of money for new profiling equipment. Your Eye One tool, unless it's damaged, will be fine.
WRT profiles, the canned profiles that paper manufacturers provide now are generally very, very good. If you stick with high quality paper manufacturers this will be the case. When inkjet printing first became popular with the likes of the Epson 1280, then the first widely accessible pigment ink printer the 2200 paper profiles were hit and miss at best. Epson's own profiles for the 2200 were pretty poor until they remade the profiles after the famous "Lepp profiles" began to be disseminated like candy at Halloween on the 'net. Epson, Hahnemuhle, Ilford, Harman, Moab and the other major paper manufacturers provide very good profiles now.
I'd suggest recalibrating your screen and if there's an automatic mode and a more manual mode, use the manual mode. Don't let the tool/software automate the process. LCDs are more difficult, generally, than CRTs to calibrate. Unlike CRTs where pretty much any one would work for photo editing, choosing an LCD is a more difficult task because not all are up to the task. I don't know what Viewsonic you have but when I was looking to replace my CRT with an LCD, Viewsonic wasn't an option for the size of screen I was looking for.
I agree with Robert's comments. In particular about the reflective vs. on-screen appearance of the image. Even with excellent profiles and soft proofing, an 'exact' match won't happen. However, if one does take care to calibrate their color management the differences will be slight but still noticeable. Don'r spend a ton of money, if you don't have to!
In my earlier post I said, "...ensure the correct paper profile is being used by PS..." A few weeks ago I made a print on my 2400 and it came out very dark. I went back and looked at the settings in 'Print With Preview' and, lo and behold, the profile was 'Adobe RGB' rather than the profile for the Epson paper I was using! I alway use 'Print With Preview' and in this instance I simply did not see the change. So, it pays to review all the settings before clicking 'Print'.
This goes over a list of reasons why your prints might look dark compared to the monitor. Have you tried that screen-white-vs-paper-white test that Preston mentioned? The brightness of that new LCD monitor is usually where the problem lies. (Especially after you've gotten used to your darker CRT for all those years.)
Posted by Rob Haman on October 21, 2008 at 7:26 PM
I want to thank you all for the input, it's great that we can bounce things off one another and come up with solutions and ideas.
I've yet to try the two suggestions about setting the brightness of the monitor; matching the page white to screen white and setting the luminance to 120 as well as reading Patrick's newsletter about the issue.
The Viewsonic monitor I purchased was recommended somewhere, I don't recall the source right now. I like the monitor although after using it for two weeks it developed a problem and it took Viewsonic two months to replace the unit. Needless to say, and I told their tech dept. "I regret purchasing this product and will not purchase another from your company."
As far as the variance between the monitor view and printout, I do understand this but it seems like in my situation there is too much variation. Which takes me back to finishing the ideas you have provided for brightness of the monitor.
I'll do some more digging and be sure to post back to this thread for others in the future.
Thanks All
Rob
Posted by Rob Haman on October 21, 2008 at 8:27 PM
I want to thank you all for the input, it's great that we can bounce things off one another and come up with solutions and ideas.
I've yet to try the two suggestions about setting the brightness of the monitor; matching the page white to screen white and setting the luminance to 120 as well as reading Patrick's newsletter about the issue.
The Viewsonic monitor I purchased was recommended somewhere, I don't recall the source right now. I like the monitor although after using it for two weeks it developed a problem and it took Viewsonic two months to replace the unit. Needless to say, and I told their tech dept. "I regret purchasing this product and will not purchase another from your company."
As far as the variance between the monitor view and printout, I do understand this but it seems like in my situation there is too much variation. Which takes me back to finishing the ideas you have provided for brightness of the monitor.
I'll do some more digging and be sure to post back to this thread for others in the future.
Thanks All
Rob
Posted by Bill Brennan on October 22, 2008 at 12:26 AM
Thanks for this discussion. I have been experiencing prints darker than my monitor on the Epson 2880. This will help.
Bill Brennan
Posted by Rob Haman on October 25, 2008 at 8:14 AM
I've re-calibrated the monitor and ignored the Eye-one's recommended target luminance of 140 and set it to 120 as suggested by Kelly. I also did the paper white match and adjusted a bit further to get a close match.
Now what I see and what I get is much more accurate with the 4800 printer, the Epson 1400 printer profiles are less exact but I can now easily make adjustments to the profile from the monitor/4800 prints. The primary purpose of the 1400 is for small prints such as note cards for my art shows where true archival quality isn't an issue but the colors and brightness still need to be accurate.
Thanks again for your help and I hope this can benefit others as well
Discussion
14 repliesI'm using an Eye One Display 2 monitor profile system, the latest firmware and profiles for the Epson 4800 and a Viewsonic LCD widescreen monitor.
Any new images I work-up in PSCS 3 to the point that they look good on the monitor, print much darker and with less color saturation than what I'm seeing on the monitor. I do realize that there will be differences between the monitors display and the printed image but this problem is beyond that difference, the print is VERY different. I also have an Epson 1400 printer for non-critical work, while the colors are off somewhat the overall image is closer to what I expect from the print.
Prints that have been worked-up in the past do come out somewhat better but still not what they should be. I'm baffled.
So, whats happened over the past few months is:
1) Replaced my older CRT monitor with a LCD monitor
2) Updated the 4800 firmware and profiles
3) Using a monitor profile system that is likely 3 years old.
I'm just not sure where to start making adjustments so any help would be a start
Rob
Also, a really dumb check (we won't discuss why I am mentioning this one
Try this quick check. In PS create a new document of sufficient size to cover the workspace area. Set the canvas color to 'white'. Now, hold a clean piece of your printing paper next to your monitor. If the screen 'white' is much brighter than than your paper's 'white', your monitor brightness is set to high. Therefore, your print will appear darker than the screen image.
If this is the case, adjust the monitor brightness down so that it matches, as closely as possible, the paper white. Once this is done, close the test canvas, open an image and run a print test. Be sure to let PS manage color, ensure the correct paper profile is being used by PS, and turn off color management in the Epson driver.
-P
Ps: Also, check to make sure your system is using the correct monitor profile. Windows can do odd things at times.
This allows the print to be much closer but not exact. I will play with a couple of the other ideas offered here regarding the brightness/luminance settings. If this fails I've been looking into profiling software/tools, I've been playing with different papers for different images and it wouldn't take long to pay for the software as opposed to having profiles made.
Rob
WRT profiles, the canned profiles that paper manufacturers provide now are generally very, very good. If you stick with high quality paper manufacturers this will be the case. When inkjet printing first became popular with the likes of the Epson 1280, then the first widely accessible pigment ink printer the 2200 paper profiles were hit and miss at best. Epson's own profiles for the 2200 were pretty poor until they remade the profiles after the famous "Lepp profiles" began to be disseminated like candy at Halloween on the 'net. Epson, Hahnemuhle, Ilford, Harman, Moab and the other major paper manufacturers provide very good profiles now.
I'd suggest recalibrating your screen and if there's an automatic mode and a more manual mode, use the manual mode. Don't let the tool/software automate the process. LCDs are more difficult, generally, than CRTs to calibrate. Unlike CRTs where pretty much any one would work for photo editing, choosing an LCD is a more difficult task because not all are up to the task. I don't know what Viewsonic you have but when I was looking to replace my CRT with an LCD, Viewsonic wasn't an option for the size of screen I was looking for.
In my earlier post I said, "...ensure the correct paper profile is being used by PS..." A few weeks ago I made a print on my 2400 and it came out very dark. I went back and looked at the settings in 'Print With Preview' and, lo and behold, the profile was 'Adobe RGB' rather than the profile for the Epson paper I was using! I alway use 'Print With Preview' and in this instance I simply did not see the change. So, it pays to review all the settings before clicking 'Print'.
Cheers,
-P
We've had so many customers come to us with a 'prints too dark' problem, that we wrote an article on that subject for one of our newsletters.
http://www.colorwiki.com/wiki/My_Printer_Is_Too_Dark
This goes over a list of reasons why your prints might look dark compared to the monitor. Have you tried that screen-white-vs-paper-white test that Preston mentioned? The brightness of that new LCD monitor is usually where the problem lies. (Especially after you've gotten used to your darker CRT for all those years.)
I've yet to try the two suggestions about setting the brightness of the monitor; matching the page white to screen white and setting the luminance to 120 as well as reading Patrick's newsletter about the issue.
The Viewsonic monitor I purchased was recommended somewhere, I don't recall the source right now. I like the monitor although after using it for two weeks it developed a problem and it took Viewsonic two months to replace the unit. Needless to say, and I told their tech dept. "I regret purchasing this product and will not purchase another from your company."
As far as the variance between the monitor view and printout, I do understand this but it seems like in my situation there is too much variation. Which takes me back to finishing the ideas you have provided for brightness of the monitor.
I'll do some more digging and be sure to post back to this thread for others in the future.
Thanks All
Rob
I've yet to try the two suggestions about setting the brightness of the monitor; matching the page white to screen white and setting the luminance to 120 as well as reading Patrick's newsletter about the issue.
The Viewsonic monitor I purchased was recommended somewhere, I don't recall the source right now. I like the monitor although after using it for two weeks it developed a problem and it took Viewsonic two months to replace the unit. Needless to say, and I told their tech dept. "I regret purchasing this product and will not purchase another from your company."
As far as the variance between the monitor view and printout, I do understand this but it seems like in my situation there is too much variation. Which takes me back to finishing the ideas you have provided for brightness of the monitor.
I'll do some more digging and be sure to post back to this thread for others in the future.
Thanks All
Rob
Bill Brennan
Now what I see and what I get is much more accurate with the 4800 printer, the Epson 1400 printer profiles are less exact but I can now easily make adjustments to the profile from the monitor/4800 prints. The primary purpose of the 1400 is for small prints such as note cards for my art shows where true archival quality isn't an issue but the colors and brightness still need to be accurate.
Thanks again for your help and I hope this can benefit others as well
Rob