Lightroom Colors Off

I've been spending a lot of time working on images in Lightroom (2.2). I've had the opportunity to compare Lightroom's raw conversion with that of Capture One (3.7) and all I can say is WOW!

Capture One has far better color separation (especially in the reds/oranges/yellows) and better color definition and overall contrast (without blowing highlights) than Lightroom. There is no contest. To get my images "close" in Lightroom to what I can get with very few adjustments in Capture One takes me hours and I can never really get there. Its pretty disappointing! My monitor is calibrated and I'm pretty sure I know what I'm doing with respect to workflow and adjustments.

My questions are:

Has anyone else noticed this?
Do other raw converters have better color than Lightroom/ACR?
Is there a way to improve Lightroom's color rendition? (I've downloaded the color profiles for my cameras and have used both the camera-specific profiles and Adobe's profiles [ACR and Adobe Standard] but I still can't get there from here.)

I really like Lightroom's database and the workflow but its raw conversion engine needs some work! I was hoping Lightroom would be my "one-stop-shop" but maybe not. Would appreciate any advice you might have on getting the best color possible.

Thanks!

What camera?

I was unhappy with the raw processing from Lightroom for a long time but once I switched to the camera profiles for my camera (Nikon D300), I am very happy.

I have always like the default raw processing you get from Nikon (CaptureNX) and I got the same processing with JPEG images out of the camera. When I started using Lightroom I also switched to raw+JPEG so I could see the default look. With the new camera profiles I can't tell the difference between the raw processed in Lightroom and the untouched JPEG. Note that I'm not saying the JPEG is right, I just find it a better starting point. Now, I have also created my own profile using a colour checker chart which means I have the option of accurate colours.

By the way, what are your develop defaults for Lightroom? I initially had problems with the colour profiles because I had changed the defaults. Once I went back to Blacks:5; Brightness:+50; Contrast:+25, the colour profiles worked perfectly.

I've been trialing both Lightroom 2.1 and Capture NX2, and so far I much prefer Capture NX2 (I use a Nikon D80). I've really tried to get Lightroom working for me, but I always end up with far better results in Capture NX2. The color in Lightroom is always a lot duller, even when I try to boost it, it doesn't have the same richness and quality that I get from Capture NX. I haven't downloaded specific D80 color profiles for Lightroom, but I see they haven't helped you much, Phillip. The interface and working environment of Lightroom is better than Capture NX, but in the end it's the quality of the result that counts. Capture NX just works better for me.

Hi Guys, I have been using Lightroom 1.4 and not yet changed to Lightroom 2 but yes I have had problems with Lightroom's colour and have always printed out via Photoshop and the colours are spot on.

Phillip,

I LOVE Lightroom for managing image, keywording, exporting etc, but like you I don't like the way it processes my Raw images. I shoot Nikon and my solution has been to edit/keyword images within Lightroom, process the Raw files within Capture NX, save as TIFF then import back into Lightroom. I have found you need to drag the Raw file from Lightroom and drop it onto the Capture NX icon in the dock (I am on a Mac) instead of "edit in Capture NX" from within Lightroom in order to actually let Capture NX do the processing. I am no expert in workflow by any means and look forward to seeing what others recommend as this is a bit more of a "process" than I would like, but it is the workaround I have come to at this point. Capture NX definitely does much better job of processing the RAW file as far I can tell.

I am unfamiliar with Canon and their RAW converter, but it is my understanding that the both companies consider their profiles propriety information and thus any other RAW converter is just "best guessing" when it comes to processing a file.

This is just my understanding and I am looking forward to being "schooled" on this.

Great post topic. Nate

Thanks for the replies. I'm using a Canon 1Ds and a Canon 10D with a 5D2 on the way.
For the 1Ds files, for images with lots of red/orange/yellow in them (like Bryce Canyon for instance) the images in Lightroom look as if an orange layer of color has been put down over the entire image! White areas next to orange areas in Lightroom processed photos have a very orange cast whereas in Capture One the orange cast is not there. The orange cast also masks subtle yellows that are obvious in Capture One and no matter how hard I try, I cannot get them back in Lightroom.

Capture One's new version 4 seems to have lost a lot of functionality (in favor of a snazzy new interface) from the 3.7 version which is a shame and one of the reasons I decided to give Lightroom a try. I love the metadata editing and cataloging aspects of Lightroom and the color workflow is nice but the image quality is severely lacking IMO. I've heard that DxO's raw processed images are very nice but I haven't tried it yet. I've read that the DxO software is really buggy.

As far as the color profiles in Lightroom, I start each image with the defaults, then select a color profile and begin the tweaking. If things aren't working out the way I like them I will reset everything and start with a different profile. On some images the Adobe Standard profile seems to work well and on others the Camera Faithful or Camera Standard seem to work well. But with all the profiles supplied by Adobe I get the muddy color casts mentioned above. Perhaps I need to photograph a color checker and build my own profile?

I should say that if you have no other raw converter to compare your files to you probably would be very happy with Lightroom. I really hadn't noticed anything objectionable until I compared the same images in Capture One. I'm also having problems with Lightroom (2.2 on a Mac) hanging on import and also becoming nonresponsive--quite often really--lots of "force quits". Because of all this I am seriously thinking of abandoning Lightroom for some other cataloging software and a better raw converter. This sucks as I have just imported 13,000+ images into Lightroom!

Having compared files from my Canon cameras in Canon's DPP, LR, ACR in PS and in some cases P1C1 LE, while P1 does produce a nice result, I can get the same result in LR or ACR in PS without a lot of work. I don't find colours are off or that there are heavy colour casts.

My version of C1 LE 3.7 has expired and I can't find the license code that came with one of my CF cards but I just opened the same file in both LR 2.2 and C1 LE 3.7. The differences between the two were the default settings for WB, Tint, Contrast and Brightness. When I changed the settings in LR to be the same as the settings in C1, the two looked identical.

I probably threw out the license information I had because I wasn't going to use C1 and I apoligise that I can't post the two samples to illustrate.

All raw converters use different (and proprietary) algorithms to render raw image files. It's to be expected that the default, "baseline" rendering in one program won't be like another. It's also to be expected that a person might like the default rendering in one program better than another, and naturally, the camera-maker's software can be expected to produce good renderings right out of the box.

But this doesn't indicate a weakness in Lightroom's raw conversion capabilities. Lightroom is capable of producing very similar renderings as C1, DxO, DPP, NX or any other software. I've used every major raw converter put out over the past five years (in fact, C1 was my favorite before Lightroom came along) and in my opinion Lightroom is the best solution because of the great amount of control it provides.

That being said, I have never liked Lightroom's default settings. If you want to get the most out of Lightroom you should create your own defaults. This will require processing a few or many individual images to establish your ideal baseline. And it may involve the application of many of Lightroom's Develop adjustments, especially the saturation of specific colors. Once you've identified the settings you like, save them as a Develop preset and/or override the Lightroom Default.

Depending on the image, DNG Camera Profiles can provide a good start towards the optimal rendering, but in the end you'll be much better off creating your own profile for each camera body you use. This is not at all difficult but does require purchasing (or borrowing) an X-Rite Color Checker.

Performance problems are another issue altogether; unfortunately, with every new release of Lightroom different users report new and different problems. Crashes often can be traced either to display driver settings and/or corrupt previews in the catalog. If you routinely maintain and optimize your catalog and frequently discard/rebuild new previews, you may have fewer problems.

Phillip, I hope you choose to stick with Lightroom. It's not the easiest software to control, and as a new app is still far from perfect, but it's been my experience that if you invest the time and effort to master it's quirks, it really pays off.

But as others have pointed out, it's important that you do what works for you.

Thanks Nat and Bob. I haven't given up yet (on Lightroom)--I would LOVE for it to be a one-stop-shop! I must be doing something wrong however because I cannot get the Capture One "look" in Lightroom. I've tried every combination of sliders, presets, profiles, etc. but just can't get there. Its really frustrating.

I've attached an example. On the left is the C1 rendering and on the right is the closest I could come in Lightroom after more than 1 hour of tweaking. You will see the orange color cast and areas that are distinctly yellow in the C1 image are orange in the Lightroom version. Would appreciate any advice on how to get rid of the orange cast and get my yellows back.

Turns out.........you can teach an old dog new tricks!

I want to thank Nat for urging me not to give up on Lightroom! I think I've found the problem with my red/orange/yellows! Also a thank you to Andrew for his tip regarding defaults.

My workflow now is to set WB to "As Shot", select the Adobe Standard or Camera Faithful/Standard profile, and [most importantly], use the "Zeroed" preset to reset everything to zero. Beginning my tweaking from this starting point gives me beautiful color and a fine amount of control. My yellows are back and the orange cast is gone! Turns out the origin of the orange cast in my photos was the direct result of the "Recovery" slider. Moving it up from zero you can watch the image go orange! I also have no blown highlights at all.

The only thing that still seems just a bit off is my whites aren't as white as the C1 images. Perhaps I need a little digital bleach? Perhaps C1 is overzealous with respect to whites or the hint of color I am seeing in the images is real. Who knows. Bottom line is that I am now getting very pleasing results with Lightroom. Whew!!!

Phillip,

If you can put up with the lack of features, Canon's DPP really sings in the red/orange/yellow tones for Canon cameras. But its slow and clunky when you compare it with LR.

I just today downloaded LR 2.2 to support my new LX3, so I will be checking out the Camera Profiles for my Rebel XT. Hopefully I will find that Adobe have addressed the muddy red/orange/yellow issue. I typically like the lightroom rendering of images, but if I've got something like a glowing canyon wall, I've used DPP.

As Nat pointed out, all raw converters use proprietary algorithms to convert the image data to color.

Mel-

And finally last night I had an opportunity to use the new Adobe dng profiles in lightroom 2.2 and I have to say that they are night and day from the old ACR 3 and ACR 4 profiles and much more like the rendering that Canon has created in DPP. For example, in one shot from last fall, I have some aspen leaves. On film and to my eye they appeared orange and red. ACR 4.4 rendered them as more of a yellow. Camera Landscape profile brings them back to the orange and red I expect!

Wooohoooo!

Still there are subtle differences between the ACR version and the DPP version of a file, but gone are the muddy reds and oranges.

Great news, Phillip! Glad you got it worked out.

Recovery is only for "recovering" detail in blown out highlights and should be used very judiciously. It works by copying image information from channels that contain data into channels that don't. In general, it's only to be used in extreme cases and at low amounts. If you don't have any blown highlights, always keep Recovery at 0. When needed, you might benefit from going up to a maximum of +20 in rare cases. But in all cases, Recovery (and Fill Light) result in color shifts and a loss of contrast.

White balance obviously makes a huge difference in the rendering of any photo. My default is As Shot (and I always leave the camera on Daylight, except indoors) and only adjust WB when it might make an improvement to the image.

Getting to a good "starting point" in Lightroom is the key - and not necessarily easy. I'm really glad to hear you found a combination of settings that you like!

Excellent Phillip. It's pretty exciting when you get it working. I know I was rapped when I got my D300 raw images to look the same in both Lightroom and CaptureNX.